HERE'S SAINT JOSEPH CHURCH IN MACON'S CHRISTMAS MIDNIGHT MASS, 2015, MY LAST ONE THERE, THE ORDINARY/NORMATIVE POST-VATICAN II MASS CELEBRATED EXTRAORDINARILY!
By 2015 the old altar railing was restored in a new position and used for this Ordinary Form Mass celebrated extraordinarily:
15 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Will ad orientem still be allowed or will it be affected in the Pope's Motu Proprio ?
Pope Francis has not celebrated an EF Mass since Vatican II, but he has celebrated the Ordinary Form Mass ad orientem several times and the most significant celebration in the Sistine Chapel for the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord, which he continued Pope Benedict's tradition of doing so. This Mass was not publicly celebrated this year, though, do to Covid constraints at the Vatican. Thus, ad orientem Masses are not forbidden in the motu proprio.
If you read the rubrics for the OF, they presume ad orientem celebration, that's why I scratch my head when some bishop goes on a jihad against this form of celebration.
What the Pope should do is allow the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular as the Eastern Churches use the vernacular in the Divine Liturgy. He could call it a hermeneutic in continuity and solve all the problems. Would the TLM people be okay with that?
Anonymous said... "What the Pope should do is allow the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular as the Eastern Churches use the vernacular in the Divine Liturgy. He could call it a hermeneutic in continuity and solve all the problems. Would the TLM people be okay with that?"
We basically already had that in the mid 1960s, and the hierarchy scrapped it within a matter of years.
It won't work today because almost no one wants it.
Most traditionalist Catholics want the old Mass in Latin as is, and most who favor the modern Mass don't want a Tridentine-like Mass in any form, even if translated in the vernacular. See the objections, even in the new Mass, to the English translations that occurred awhile back.
Members of the modern clergy who disdain the old Mass don't disdain it merely because it's in Latin; they disdain the entire ethos surrounding it and everything that it represents (the "old" Church); the very existence of, and wording of, certain of the prayers; the ceremony; the repetitions, et cetera; because it serves as a constant witness against many of their ideas.
And not only do they not want it for themselves; they don't want it for anyone else. Latin is a minimal part of their opposition to it.
Yes. I agree. Latin is important but not THAT important. Latin is not an eighth sacrament as the late and great Frank Sheed used to say and write. What is of the greatest importance, or what should be of great importance to all Catholics is the Mass as a holy sacrifice.
(See Sheed's late 60s short book - "Is it the Same Church?")
Sorry this is off topic, but I have heard a rumour online that Benedict/Ratzinger may live to a 101, largely thanks to a good diet of fine Bavarian sausages and, in moderation, even finer German beer!
1. You can (just about) get away with preceding the Mass with the old Asperges rite, but it is reserved for the principal Mass on Sunday - not on any other day, regardless of the solemnity.
2. The celebrant was assisted by two ministers. The deacon proclaimed the gospel, and the one acting as 'subdeacon' should have proclaimed the epistle. Yet this was done by a lay reader. One wonders what the second minister was there for.
3. It's illogical to use the ambo for the first two readings and not for the gospel.
4. In neither form is the 'last gospel' sung by the celebrant. This is the sort of liturgical creativity that gets the Novus Ordo a bad name.
Summorum Pontificum already authorised, and to some extent encouraged, the readings to be in the vernacular and proclaimed from the ambo. Francis is doing both new here and is entirely aligned with Pope Emeritus Benedict’s thinking on these points.
15 comments:
Will ad orientem still be allowed or will it be affected in the Pope's Motu Proprio ?
Pope Francis has not celebrated an EF Mass since Vatican II, but he has celebrated the Ordinary Form Mass ad orientem several times and the most significant celebration in the Sistine Chapel for the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord, which he continued Pope Benedict's tradition of doing so. This Mass was not publicly celebrated this year, though, do to Covid constraints at the Vatican. Thus, ad orientem Masses are not forbidden in the motu proprio.
Altar girl alert!!!!!
Female lector’s and servers are allowed by universal liturgical law to which I am obedient.
If you read the rubrics for the OF, they presume ad orientem celebration, that's why I scratch my head when some bishop goes on a jihad against this form of celebration.
I myself and others have no problems with altar girls - aka serviettes - at all!
Peace,
Kevin P Qanon.
What the Pope should do is allow the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular as the Eastern Churches use the vernacular in the Divine Liturgy. He could call it a hermeneutic in continuity and solve all the problems. Would the TLM people be okay with that?
Anonymous said... "What the Pope should do is allow the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular as the Eastern Churches use the vernacular in the Divine Liturgy. He could call it a hermeneutic in continuity and solve all the problems. Would the TLM people be okay with that?"
We basically already had that in the mid 1960s, and the hierarchy scrapped it within a matter of years.
It won't work today because almost no one wants it.
Most traditionalist Catholics want the old Mass in Latin as is, and most who favor the modern Mass don't want a Tridentine-like Mass in any form, even if translated in the vernacular. See the objections, even in the new Mass, to the English translations that occurred awhile back.
Members of the modern clergy who disdain the old Mass don't disdain it merely because it's in Latin; they disdain the entire ethos surrounding it and everything that it represents (the "old" Church); the very existence of, and wording of, certain of the prayers; the ceremony; the repetitions, et cetera; because it serves as a constant witness against many of their ideas.
And not only do they not want it for themselves; they don't want it for anyone else. Latin is a minimal part of their opposition to it.
Fr. Allan J. McDonald said..."Female lector’s and servers are allowed by universal liturgical law to which I am obedient."
But they aren't mandated, and no priest is required to have them, so there's nothing to obey in that regard.
"Female servers" have been considered an evil by past popes, going back 15 centuries to Gelasius I, and reiterated by Innocent IV and Benedict XIV.
Both Paul VI and John Paul II forbad them, and then later JPII reversed himself to allow them.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben14/b14allat.htm
Yes. I agree. Latin is important but not THAT important.
Latin is not an eighth sacrament as the late and great Frank Sheed used to say and write.
What is of the greatest importance, or what should be of great importance to all Catholics is the Mass as a holy sacrifice.
(See Sheed's late 60s short book - "Is it the Same Church?")
Peace,
PJK.
Sorry this is off topic, but I have heard a rumour online that Benedict/Ratzinger may live to a 101, largely thanks to a good diet of fine Bavarian sausages and, in moderation, even finer German beer!
Girls don't belong behind the altar it is reserved for male's only. That is for the Novus Ordonrians
I found one or two things puzzling.
1. You can (just about) get away with preceding the Mass with the old Asperges rite, but it is reserved for the principal Mass on Sunday - not on any other day, regardless of the solemnity.
2. The celebrant was assisted by two ministers. The deacon proclaimed the gospel, and the one acting as 'subdeacon' should have proclaimed the epistle. Yet this was done by a lay reader. One wonders what the second minister was there for.
3. It's illogical to use the ambo for the first two readings and not for the gospel.
4. In neither form is the 'last gospel' sung by the celebrant. This is the sort of liturgical creativity that gets the Novus Ordo a bad name.
Summorum Pontificum already authorised, and to some extent encouraged, the readings to be in the vernacular and proclaimed from the ambo. Francis is doing both new here and is entirely aligned with Pope Emeritus Benedict’s thinking on these points.
Liturgical Line K,
Duh!
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