Sunday, July 25, 2021



There is an article that shows how small of a minority are those priests and congregations which prefer the ancient Mass. I have to agree that we are a minority. There is a lot of bragging about how much we are growing and how young we are and that the desire for this Mass is not nostalgia but a desire for an experience of the Mass that incorporates more reverence from both the clergy and laity and is more transcendent than what is the standard staple for the more recent new order of the Mass. 

Here are some statistics from Latin Mass Hysteria”:

Image credit: Latin Mass Directory

Above all, the list clearly demonstrates how geographically skewed even this tiny minority is: the United States, which is home to just six percent of the world’s Catholics, is home to nearly forty percent of all Tridentines Masses, with 658 sites. France, Great Britain, and Italy are the next most popular, with 199, 157, and 91 sites (which can be a parish or other chapel or designated spot) respectively. Indeed, Europe and the Anglosphere account for more than eighty-six percent of all Tridentine sites, and if you removed the fifty-seven sites in Brazil – the world’s most populous Catholic country – there would be hardly any in Latin America, Africa, or Asia, the continents where the Catholic population is largest and fastest-growing. 

Yet, there is such an animus towards this Mass, the Holy Father felt he had to crush it. But why? If the more recent new order of the Mass can be celebrated in Latin, what is so different about it and the old order that the old order is viewed as some kind of poison? 

And of the minority of Catholics who do celebrate the older Mass, how many are actually schismatic, meaning they do not acknowledge this pope or think they themselves are the elite remnant of the true Church that Vatican II, which they reject, has destroyed? How many?????

On this weekend when we celebrate for the first time Grandparents and the elderly, let us also recall that like the young, the old can be a mixed bag of wisdom but also narrow mindedness. There is a minority of older people in the Church that despise what younger people like and embrace. Older priests and bishops to include the pope who were when they were young at the forefront of going way beyond what Vatican II actually taught were critiqued by bishops and priests in the late 1960’s who themselves were in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. 

There’s nothing new in the Church about this.

Today, we have Cardinal Kasper scratching his head, along with his very good friend to whom he has been a mentor, Pope Francis. Kasper is 88 and Pope Francis on his way to 85. Sometimes older people simply do not understand the desires and aspirations of the young who often make mistakes in procuring what they desire. It happened in the 1960’s and it is happening again and will always happen.


Unfortunately, some geriatrics in very high places in the Church are constructing a dead end street for this juvenile movement to stop them in their tracks when all that was needed was a detour sign to keep them on the right road but without ending their legitimate aspirations which helps the Church in the long run; does not compromise her. 


rcg said...

The Church has been run like a franchise for a while. The reactions to concerns about scandal, worship, and social and political issues reminds me more of an organization trying to protect their money than trying to improve their product. Bad business.

Pierre said...

These men are invested in the liturgical failure which drove away millions and continues to do so. For being allegedly liberal and into mercy and accompaniment, their actions show they are not.

I think Father Fox is onto something when he says no one really likes the OF because priests are always tinkering with it to make it "better." What should really concern these men is that a minority of Catholics now believe in the Real Presence, so the the OF is clearly not getting the message across whereas the EF clearly does. There is something very troubling here.

Even though the numbers of folks attending the EF are small, those numbers are growing, and what's more these are the believing, committed Catholics with larger families than the typical OF family. There is a demographic sinkhole with the OF crowd which is accelerating. It won't be long before more parishes close and the Church may have to consider consolidating Dioceses because they won't need all of that duplication of overhead. Trent was an unmitigated success, Vatican II was not.

Anonymous said...

Yes, a small minority, but the important thing overlooked is the demographic of who attends. That being many younger folk often with booming families trying to live a Catholic life and looking for meaning they find lacking elsewhere.

As far as I know, no other part of Catholicism in the West is INCREASING numbers of younger attendees. The praise and worship style with pop music is predictably fading, same as it did for protestants. Nor will more ecstatic type practices, minus a genuine interior life.

BUT, even minus the rash attack on the UA, it too was/is destined to fizzle if only served up with rote mindlessness by only functionaries, minus true spiritual guidance and mentoring, lacking in majority before Vatican II, and certainly lacking post-Vatican II with the newer Mass.

Both rites and their server-uppers have essentially left it up to individuals to find their own way in any real interior life, which has been THE disaster which has led to the collapse of practicing Catholics. They are not getting answers to those deepest yearnings, and rightly see that attending is a waste of time and money when those answers are not forthcoming.

John said...

Jesus and his apostles were also a very small group. Yet at a very important time in the Jewish liturgical year the Sanhedrin was feverishly pursuing our Lord and were determined to forced the Roman authorities to commit a heinous crime on the day before Passover. The haste to stop Jesus in his ministry at any cost was motivated by fear.

Jewish leaders feared division among their ranks and a consequent loss of even the limited autonomy they enjoyed under Roman supervision. So they struck as soon as Judas turned up and offered to betray Jesus. They might have postponed this after the Passover liturgies were over. But no! It had to be done now because Judas might change his mind.

Fear, a very powerful motivator.

Pierre said...

Father McDonald,

Over at Rorate, they are carrying an interview with Bishop Schneider on the recent motu proprio. It makes excellent reading and points out the blatant hypocrisy underlying this piece

Luckylady said...

It has been said that power corrupts.

Fear of loss of power can also corrupt.

Prince Titanium said...

It’s very clear why the conditions for public celebrations of the “extraordinary form” or unreformed rite of mass using the 1962 missal have returned to the situation prior to SP. Francis himself explicitly states the reasons for doing so in his accompanying letter. He also references the feedback from the worldwide survey of bishops regarding the impact of SP upon the local church and church unity.

There is documented evidence which clearly supports Francis’s reason for this difficult decision. A significant proportion (even if only a vocal minority) of those attached to the TLM have openly declared that Francis is not the current reigning Pope of the Catholic Church, or that he is an anti-Pope, or was invalidly elected Pope, or claim Benedict is still Pope etc etc. They are, effectively, in schism. The church has always acted to limit the influence and impact of schismatic movements among the wider church.

In addition, a significant number of TLM adherents claim it is the “real mass” or “true mass”, as well as the pre-Vatican II church being the “true church” or “true faith”. They also attack and aim to undermine the mainstream church and reformed liturgical rites (usually with factually incorrect and/or misleading information). Much of both these deliberately subversive trends are opaquely financed and organised by far right / ultra free marketers whose political beliefs are contrary to the church’s social teachings.

Both these groups comprised a significant proportion of TLM followers - they are a vocal majority, not a vocal minority. Just look at a cross section of opinions expressed on social media, blogs and various traditionalists news sites.

The traditionalist movement should have put its own house in order by public ally challenging and correcting these schismatic tendencies and dogmatic errors among those within its ranks. Nowhere is such outrageous and defiant behaviour justified. There has been a deliberate attempt to set up a parallel church within the church, as a challenge to rightful authority…

…for these reasons, action needed to be taken before it caused the developing American schism to fracture the universal church. Please stop pretending, TC is an unjustified attack for unknown reasons and therefore unfair on the wider community - that’s highly disingenuous and lacks integrity.

PS: Are you going to continue commenting on TC every day? Seems very disproportionate and slightly obsessive to me!

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Prince I do have family celebrity look alike post and UR baptism during Mass with my preaching sans ambo. What more do you want?

Tom Marcus said...

"Prince Titanium"

I was about to make a sarcastic comment about "beating the dead horse" with regard to the recent Motu Proprio, then I read your pile of droppings.

You can try to justify this overreach until your thumbs go numb, but in the end, a few anecdotal complaints about how sanctimonious some TLM goers are don't add up to much more than hearsay. And even if it WAS altogether true, Cardinal Mueller summed up the value of such arguments in his commentary: abusus non tollit usum.

It's rather like saying that we have to shut down all the Mexican restaurants because a lot of the patrons think that Mexican food is better than any other kind. Hollow, misleading and deceitful reasoning at best.

I, for one, am grateful for the pope doing this. He has unmasked himself and I feel like more Catholics can see him for what he truly is and what he truly wants than ever before. This kind of desperate overreaction is an admission of defeat. The only difference is, the losing party has the keys to the office building. He and the other Vatican II distorters won't be holding those keys forever--and that scares the heck out of them.

Now, the one thing I do agree with you about--can we please stop beating this dead horse? We've got the momentum and we've got more support from Catholics who normally had no interest in the Latin Mass than we might have ever hoped for. It's time to USE IT and move forward.

Anonymous said...

I see no point in debating The Troll Prince Of Bel Aire, nor even approving his post.

All he does is cite unobtanium data from "surveys" run by the outfit who also issued the quashing document, which makes as much sense as trusting RJ Reynolds data on smoking safety, except Reynolds actually furnished the data.

Otherwise, all he did was abuse the comment section for more snide shots at the blog owner. Who still approved it.

Pierre said...

Tom Marcus,

Your last point is right on the mark. Folks I know who are not TLM supporters are outraged at the narrowmindedness and vindictiveness of this papal overreach. It makes all of his statements about "mercy" and "accompaniment" ring hollow. Please read Bishop Schneider's interview at Rorate Caeli, he tears apart the "rational" for this papal temper tantrum.

Pierre said...

Prince Titanium is an unhappy priest with numerous noms de plume

Anonymous said...

Paris Pete - Nah, he's not. You've made that silly claim many times only to be shot down many times.

It's obvious this fact can't sink in - you are too dense to let it. So, you'll just keep getting corrected as needs be.

Pierre said...

Nope - it’s you K - talk about dense. You don’t even know the official language of your Rite

Tom Marcus said...


Whomever it is, it isn't really important. I doubt that Fr. K would take such a cocky and insouciant tone and whomever it is, likely doesn't believe what he is saying so much as just enjoying himself trying to provoke readers. Don't waste your time taking the bait.

Pierre said...

Tom Marcus,

I concur. Sad that he gets his jollies this way!

Mark Thomas said...

At our diocese's FSSP, we have folks who love Pope Francis.

Said folks are not thrilled with Vatican II. But unlike more than a few "traditional" Catholics, they don't claim that Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo, are opposed to the True Religion.

They do not claim, as does The Remnant, that George Soros is Pope Francis' boss.

-- "THE POPE'S BOSS -- Wikileaks: Pope and Soros An Unholy Alliance"


They do not demand, as have Peter Kwasniewski, Father John Hunwicke, Catholic Family News, as well as additional leading "traditional" Catholics, that our bishops condemn Pope Francis as a heretic.

-- Letter signed by more than 1,500 accuses Pope Francis of the 'canonical delict of heresy'

Said folks insisted that they will denounce as "unfaithful" any bishop who does not find Pope Francis guilty of heresy.


Unfortunately, at our FSSP parish, we also have "traditional" Catholics who adhere to the above garbage. I know one of our FSSP parishioners who had operated a right-wing, anti-Pope Francis, anti-"New Rome"/"New Church" blog.

It is undeniable that such folks have attached themselves to the TLM/TLM parishes.

Said folks have done exactly as Pope Francis noted. Said folks have weaponized the TLM/Summorum Pontificum.


I wish to emphasize that our diocese's FSSP parish does not preach the horrific garbage that, unfortunately, has given a black eye to a great portion of the "traditional" Catholic Movement.

Unfortunately, Rorate Caeli, Father Zuhlsdorf, Peter Kwasniewski, The Remnant, 1 Peter5, well as one "traditional" Catholic blogger/Twitter person after another, are among those who have weaponized the TLM/Summorum Pontificum.

They have spewed a tremendous amount of venom into the "traditional" Catholic Movement.


Mark Thomas

Pierre said...

Mark Thomas,

Why are you posting here? Father McDonald disagrees with this tyrannical motu proprio as do most sentient people of good will. Is he part of this “evil” cabal?

Tom Marcus said...


William Meyer said...

It has been observed by more than a few commentators that the Latin Mass has grown more in the US than elsewhere, and that Francis has been quite clear in his disdain for Americans.