Thursday, October 18, 2018

HOLY FATHER TELLS JESUITS THAT HE NEEDS THEM TO CONTINUE TO HELP HIM TO CHANGE THE CHURCH AND THE SUCESSES OF VATICAN II FOR THE PAST 50 YEARS WHICH NEEDS ANOTHER 50 YEARS TO FULLY IMPLEMENT

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The Holy Father touted the theoretical success of the first 50 years of Vatican II but acknowledged that it will take 💯 years to fully implement Vatican II:

I believe the Lord wants a change in the Church,” he told 28 Jesuits during a private meeting during his trip to the Baltics. “I have said many times that a perversion of the Church today is clericalism…I know that the Lord wants the Council to make headway in the Church.”
“Historians tell us that it takes 100 years for a Council to be applied,” he added. “We are halfway there. So, if you want to help me, do whatever it takes to move the Council forward in the Church.”

Then a Lithuania 🇱🇹 Archbishop let the Holy Father know of the jaw dropping practical success of Vatican II over the last 50 years as it concerns the Jesuits:


Lithuanian Archbishop Lionginas Virbalas of Kaunas told Francis that the province had dwindled from over 1,000 members to just over thirty and will soon merge into a larger, singular province with Austria, Germany, Switzerland, and Hungary. Consequentially, some of the Jesuits now take on 3-4 jobs to support the work of the Society.

The pope’s remarks were published in full on Wednesday by the Vatican vetted Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica.

19 comments:

Dan said...

"Clericalism" - Most of the time I wish the clergy REALIZED they were clerics and acted such.

Mark Thomas said...

Pope Francis' unrelenting commitment to Vatican II's implementation is 100 percent in line with that of Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Benedict XVI insisted that the Church is 100 percent committed to Vatican II.

Pope Benedict XVI distinguished between two Councils: The real, authentic Vatican II, as compared to (his terms) "the Council of the journalists, the Council of the media."

http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2013/february/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20130214_clero-roma.html

-- He insisted that the authentic Council is of the Holy Ghost...has, where implemented, renewed the Church...and that the Church is committed to Vatican II's implementation.

-- He insisted that the "Council" which has prevailed, is the fake Council...""the Council of the journalists, the Council of the media."

The fake Council is responsible for the collapse of the Church, according to Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Benedict XVI, February 13, 2013 A.D.

"We know that this Council of the media was accessible to everyone. Therefore, this was the dominant one, the more effective one, and it created so many disasters, so many problems, so much suffering: seminaries closed, convents closed, banal liturgy … and the real Council had difficulty establishing itself and taking shape; the virtual Council was stronger than the real Council.

"But the real force of the Council was present and, slowly but surely, established itself more and more and became the true force which is also the true reform, the true renewal of the Church.

"It seems to me that, 50 years after the Council, we see that this virtual Council is broken, is lost, and there now appears the true Council with all its spiritual force.

"And it is our task, especially in this Year of Faith, on the basis of this Year of Faith, to work so that the true Council, with its power of the Holy Spirit, be accomplished and the Church be truly renewed. Let us hope that that the Lord will assist us.

"I myself, secluded in prayer, will always be with you and together let us go forward with the Lord in the certainty that the Lord will conquer. Thank you!"

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

LOL - Vatican Disaster II - if fully implemented by the Jesuits will result in a "Going Out of Business Sale!"

Now if the deaf, dumb and blind are interested in seeing a successful pontificate, look no longer than Pius XII's blessed reign which recaps stats in the US in 1959 on the evee of the Big Bust:

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

Marc said...

"Historians tell us that it takes 100 years for a Council to be applied."

Which historians say this and what history are they looking at?

The first four Councils demonstrate that it typically a relatively short period of time for the issues created by the preceding Council to require the attention of the next Council, as each Council set up the theological dispute that would take place at its predecessor Council. From there through the Seventh Council, about 100 years separated the events in each instance. That had little to do with "application" of the Councils, though, and everything to do with the uprising of new heresies (usually based on issues created by the preceding councils).

I know little about the Councils beyond that point up to Trent (with the exception of Ferrera-Florence), but a cursory review of their substance doesn't support the 100 year application claim. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Vatican I required 100 years to be applied, unless one asserts we are still in that process (which is very arguable given it has apparently been forgotten in the last 60 years).

TJM said...

If you really want to see PF's true colors, see him yucking it up with Left-Wing Loon Michael Moore:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/10/tin_ear_the_pope_whoops_it_up_with_michael_moore.html

Mark Thomas said...

I have found interesting the following in regard to Pope Benedict XVI's/Cardinal Ratzinger's assessment of "pre-Vatican II Church":

He painted a bleak picture of pre-Vatican II Latin Church liturgy. He insisted that the Faithful had not been in contact with the Mass. The Mass had become the priest's private domain, according to Cardinal Ratzinger.

One thinks of the standard assessment of pre-Vatican II Roman Liturgy...the priest, with his back to the people, mumbled in Latin...Low Mass was over in 20 minutes...then everybody bolted home.

In 2013 A.D., Pope Benedict XVI insisted that on the eve of Vatican II, although the situation within the Church seemed decent on the surface, the Church was in need of major reform.

He noted:

"However, there was a feeling that the Church was not moving forward, that it was declining, that it seemed more a thing of the past and not the herald of the future.

"And at that moment, we were hoping that this relation would be renewed, that it would change; that the Church might once again be a force for tomorrow and a force for today."

One Vatican II Father after another offered the same bleak assessment of the Church.

Even Archbishop Lefebvre called for radical liturgical reform. Example: He believed that the Mass was in need of heavy vernacularization.

As Pope Benedict XVI/Cardinal Ratzinger noted, Vatican II enjoyed massive support within the Church.

The reality is that Vatican II, as is the case with the Novus Ordo, is here to stay.

The Vatican II Era reform is irreversible.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Translation: "It won't be until all the people that knew the pre-Vatican Church are dead [meaning Baby Boomers], and all living memory of the Church before 1963 is gone, that will we finally have our New un-Catholic Church. Then we'll be FREE!!"

God...please...save your people!

God bless.
Bee

Marc said...

"The Vatican II Era reform is irreversible."

On a long enough timeline, every reform in the Catholic Church is reversible.

Mark Thomas said...

Marc said..."On a long enough timeline, every reform in the Catholic Church is reversible."

Our Popes, Cardinals, and bishops have, time and again, declared that the Church's commitment to Vatican II is irreversible.

There isn't any question that the Church has moved far beyond Her pre-Vatican II, circle-the-wagons-against-the-"Reformation."

Even the likes of Cardinals Burke and Sarah have made it clear that they are men of Council.

There is z-e-r-o desire among our Churchmen to reverse Vatican II, consign the Novus Ordo to history...it's irreversible.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Marc,

Once upon a time, the Church adhered to Her ancient tradition of assigning tremendous strict penances (penances that lasted years) to Her children.

Once upon a time, the Church demanded that Her children adhere to strict fasts.

Those days are gone forever. The Church has moved far beyond those days...those teachings.

In the same way, Pope Venerable Pius XII initiated radical reforms to initiate the process to "raze the bastions of the Church" that had been in place from Protestant "Reformation" to his time.

Pope Venerable Pius XII launched the Church into a new era. He launched us into the Ecumenical Movement, radical liturgical reform (with Bugnini's assistance)...

...modernization of Biblical studies, women's religious orders, fasting practices...etc.

He launched the Church into a new era.

Marc, in regard to the Church, the situation in question is irreversible.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Dan said...

Actually, I think Mark Thomas is correct. We're never going back.

Anonymous said...

Wait minute Mark

You remind us that the Church *reversed* the "assigning of... strict penances" and the "adherence to strict fasts", yet you maintain that changes instituted or begun by
Pope Pius XII are *irreversible*.

Anonymous said...

Marc, I'm not sure it was Pius 12th who initiated the ecumenical movement---I think it was more John the 23rd. In 1960, for instance, Pope John received Dr. Geoffrey Fisher, then the (Anglican) Archbishop of Canterbury (the prelate who officiated at (future Queen) Elizabeth's wedding in 1947 and her coronation in 1953. It had been the first time in hundreds of years there had been a meeting between a pope and an archbishop of Canterbury. Father M. in an earlier post mentioned Pope Paul's meeting with the ecumenical patriarch in Jerusalem in 1964, and in 1966 the pope met with Dr. Fisher's successor, the Anglo-Catholic Michael Ramsey.

The Anglican-Catholic dialogue got more difficult in the mid 1970s with the ordination of female priests in parts of the Anglican Communion, it becoming obvious pretty quickly that such ordinations were a barrier to reunion between Rome and Canterbury. Though the Eastern Orthodox do not ordain women priests, they have other issues with Rome---the role of the pope and the Filioque being the two biggest issues.



Marc said...

Mark, You've cited a laundry list of instances where previous reforms were reversed to prove the assertion that the present reforms of Vatican II are irreversible.

Dan said...

I've come to the conclusion that EVERY article of faith that I was taught and believe(d?) is up for grabs and will be revised and reinterpreted by the 'enlightened' so called shepherds. I will not be surprised if we're told that the REAL 'real presence' was really in the community of the people of God all along. People like our Mark Thomas will accept all without issue, but me.... well, I'll wonder where the Catholic Church went - as I do now. MT, I've never been a traditionalist, never seen a Latin Mass, yet I am saddened and outraged by how casually the elite treat the Faith.

Mark is right, there is no way back, only forward into new and surprising reinterpretations and reinventions of those 'never changing truths.' I just wasn't prepared for this. Not at my age.

Mark Thomas said...

Anonymous Anonymous said..."Marc, I'm not sure it was Pius 12th who initiated the ecumenical movement---I think it was more John the 23rd."

Hello.

Pope Venerable Pius XII (Holy Office) discussed Catholic participation in the Ecumenical Movement via Cum compertum, 1948 A.D., and far more in depth in the 1949 A.D. document, On The Ecumenical Movement.

Thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

What benefit has the Ecumenical Movement been to the ordinary Catholic? Nada, zip, zed. Makes elite left-wing loons feel morally superior. The Faith collapses but hey, we still have Ecumenism with people who hate our theology. Bravo!!!

johnnyc said...

He sounds like a worried man. I think he sees that there is a growing attraction to the Traditional Latin Mass and Tradition in general by young people and that the 'spirit' of Vatican II crowd will soon be gone. If the Novus Ordo was the answer there would have been no need for Summorum Pontificum. Desperate men do desperate things and I wouldn't be surprised if he implemented a suppression of the TLM.

Mark Thomas said...

Dan said..."I've come to the conclusion that EVERY article of faith that I was taught and believe(d?) is up for grabs and will be revised and reinterpreted by the 'enlightened' so called shepherds. People like our Mark Thomas will accept all without issue, but me.... well, I'll wonder where the Catholic Church went - as I do now. Mark is right, there is no way back, only forward into new and surprising reinterpretations and reinventions of those 'never changing truths.'"

Dan, the Church moves forward and proclaims "never changing truths." As has been the case with Holy Mother Church from the dawn of Her existence, the manner in which She proclaims/presents the Faith develops...but the Faith remains the same, yesterday and today.

Example: Again, the Church altered over the centuries the manner in which She administered the holy Sacrament of Penance.

The Early Church assigned severe, years-long penances...today, She assigns easy penances.

The Church altered throughout the centuries Her very rigid teachings in regard to fasts.

The Church moved from non-participation in the Ecumenical Movement...to Pope Venerable Pius XII's decision to embrace the Ecumenical Movement.

As the state of pre-Vatican II Latin Church liturgy had fossilized/stagnated, Pope Venerable Pius XII tapped Monsignor Bugnini to develop radical liturgical reforms to reform the Liturgy.

Even Archbishop Lefebvre insisted that the time had arrived to introduce a heavy dose of vernaculars to the Roman Mass.

The Church develops Her teachings. She moves forward.

The circle-the-wagons Church that developed during the Protestant Reformation was in dire need of reform.

Pope Venerable Pius XII initiated in earnest the radical reform process to move the Church into modern times. But the Faith remains unchanged.

The radical reform of the Church initiated by Pope Venerable Pius XII, then continued by his successors, is irreversible.

Pax.

Mark Thomas