Tuesday, June 4, 2013


As Catholics and others get cooked in the gay agenda crock pot of "I'm okay, you're okay" morality, one can see by the following article that we who are faithful to the Church in the areas of faith, morals and canon law, as well as Scripture and Tradition and the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church will have to be able to handle the shrills of the those promoting the homosexual agenda and the media's gay lobby. These people hate the Catholic Church and seem to be fomenting hate crimes against her.

Illinois bishop faces challenging audience at talk on same-sex marriage
Michael Clancy | Jun. 4, 2013

Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Springfield, Ill., walked into a beehive when he agreed to speak about same-sex marriage before a small audience in Phoenix over the weekend. But at least the bishop was there, taking the stings.

Paprocki joined Sr. Jeannine Gramick, a longtime advocate for gay and lesbian people, on the stage Friday in front of about 150 people at Shadow Rock United Church of Christ.

The presentation, organized by Robert Blair Kaiser and his group, Jesuit Alumni in Arizona, featured opening remarks from Paprocki and Gramick, then questions from the audience.

Paprocki understood he would be facing a challenging, if not hostile, audience. Recent public opinion polls have shown the majority of Catholics now support same-sex marriage.

Paprocki told the audience that the murder of his former church secretary, Mary Stachowicz, whose killer was a gay man, got little media attention compared to the 1998 homicide of Matthew Shepard, a gay Wyoming teen killed in a hate crime. Paprocki said the power of the gay lobby and favorable media reaction accounted for the difference.

He said the "gay activist lobby" forced the issue on the church and put the church in a defensive position. Still, he said, the church has one position, and it does not change.

"This event was billed as 'Two Catholic Views of Gay Marriage,' " he said. "But there is only one view that is authentically Catholic. The other view is dissenting."

He quoted from Pope John Paul II's letters and teachings and added that marriage is defined by "the potential to bring forth human life."

As Paprocki was speaking, one audience member, Anne Gray of Scottsdale, Ariz., shouted, "That's insulting." Paprocki ignored her.

He said if same-sex marriage is allowed, sadomasochism or other practices should be, too.

"If there is no moral truth, only alternatives, then everything should be OK," he said.

Gramick reflected on changes in her own attitudes, attitudes of the public and attitudes of the church hierarchy. She said more and more church leaders are moving toward support of at least civil unions.

Referring to Paprocki's remark that morality cannot be based on polls, she said, "We may not legislate on the basis of polls, but they tell us what people are thinking."

She said polls show Catholics' opinions have moved from opposition to same-sex marriage to approval in a short time because nearly everyone has a gay friend, family member or business associate.

Then the questions started, and the bees started to sting.

The first person to speak, Brian Dugan of Green Valley, near the Mexico border, said Paprocki, who holds degrees in canon and civil law, sounded legalistic while Gramick sounded compassionate.

Paprocki said Gramick presented her case from an emotional position while he said the church's stance comes from the position of faith and reason.

"My position is not a question of anecdotal stories," he said.

In response to a question from Kaiser, Paprocki said the church would love to welcome gay people but is forced into a defensive position by "activists pushing an agenda." That set off Gray, who has a gay son, again.

"Here I am," she said. "The big scary gay agenda."

Paprocki said he could accept some legal protections for same-sex couples, but that same-sex marriage is "inimical to the common good" and civil unions often are marriage masquerading under another name.

Gray, an attorney, finally got her chance to address Paprocki directly.

"It is all about anecdotal stories," she said. "My son is a perfect human being. There is nothing intrinsically disordered about him. I know because I am his mother."

She said if bishops wanted to argue for traditional marriage because the sexes are complementary, then the bishops ought to invite women to their deliberations.

"You need to listen to mothers," she said.

By this time, not a single question was addressed to Gramick, and none would be.

One audience member asked the bishop how he viewed King David's relationship with two wives if marriage has not changed through history. Paprocki said that was a long time before the Catholic church and said the questioner was arguing for polygamy.

Another audience member asked about marriage between elderly people who would never have children. Paprocki recommended reading the biblical story of Abraham's wife, Sarah, who got pregnant at an old age.

One of the youngest people in the room said she was a devout Catholic, but when her aunt and sister told her they were gay, she was put on the spot. She asked Paprocki if she could remain a good Catholic and still support her family members in their desires to form lifelong relationships.

"It is a struggle to be a good Catholic while supporting gay marriage," the bishop said. "It strains your relationship with the church."

He said those who oppose the church on the issue should become Protestants. "They do a lot of good things too," he said.

Two issues did not come up: the Boy Scouts' recent policy change allowing gay scouts and Paprocki's role on the three-bishop panel overseeing Vatican-imposed changes to the Leadership Conference of Women Religious.

The gathering broke up after two and a half hours, even though people were lined up to talk to Paprocki.

[Michael Clancy is a reporter for The Arizona Republic.]


John Nolan said...

The "gay marriage" Bill has just been endorsed by the House of Lords. The (Anglican) bishops abstained. +Cantuar (Justin Welby) voiced his opposition to the measure but then announced he would not be voting. Nothing like having the courage of one's convictions. Meanwhile, rank-and-file Conservatives are leaving the Party in droves.

Marc said...

Mr. Nolan, why the "+" in front of Justin Welby's name? He's as much a bishop as I am... (I'm not trying to condemn; I'm genuinely curious, as you know I put much stock in your opinions.)

At any rate, I don't follow the Anglicans very much (read: not at all). So, I'm surprised he's against this. Was that surprising at all?

brad said...

The bishop is right. If the Church caves on gay unions (and it looks like it may be going that way, since the Vatican's Mnsgr Lombardi voiced support for it without any reprocussions form Pope Francis, who, according to his past views, may have told Lombardi to make the statement of approval to set the stage for the Pope's own changing of doctrine on the matter), the Church MUST have have approval and removing the stain of sin from all other alternative sexual practices, or else she will be a hypocrite with no credibillity. The next few years will prove to be the Catholic equivalent of Lambeth 1930.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Brad, I don't think anyone is supporting same sex unions, but in terms of the lesser of two evils, calling these legal concoctions "civil unions" is better than the state calling them marriage. So what I hear Lombardi and others saying is don't call civil unions marriages, they aren't call them what they are civil unions. At any rate, I fear this is a losing battle for the Church as young people already see no problem with same sex marriages, same sex or other sex fornication or adultery. We have slid down the slippery slope of sexual chaos and anything goes, except promoting natural law, Scripture, Tradition and chastity. Odd!

rcg said...

I think we do not understand the full extent of this disorder and may be wasting a lot of time discussing it with the patient.

Anonymous said...

I would like to see the Catholic church and the other churches that believe in traditional matters as like the Amish. Sort of an island unto ourselves as the world slips away. We should continue our beliefs with strength and fortitude hopefully. Let the dissenters wash away with the worldly. We live in a post-christian neo-pagan world. The new evanglisation is our renewed great commission.

Hammer of Fascists said...

I'd like to address a wider concern here. This article shows 1) hostile reporting; 2) a Religious openly challenging both the Magisterium and the teaching authority of a bishop; 3) a pastorally tone-deaf bishop who plays into the hands of a hostile audience by vilifying gays and making comparisons between same-sex marriage and sadomasochism; and 4) a bishop who legitimizes and dignifies dissent within the Church by attending the event in question, entitled "Two Catholic Views"--might as well attend an event called "Did Jesus rise from the dead or not? Two Catholic Views." Well played, everyone.

Maybe the picture isn't as dark as I've painted it, since maybe a lot of it is due to how the author of this article portrayed it. Odds are he was sympathetic to the pro-gay view. But the more I see of all of these issues--liturgy, abortion, same-sex marriage, and such--the clearer it becomes that those who are genuinely trying to know and follow legitimate Catholic teaching are left to their own devices to discover it and to follow it, often in the face of a hostile local "Catholic" community. Is this, then, the "faithful remnant?"

Had I not studied Catholicism for 20 years before coming into the Church--had I learned about the Church solely through the priests of my local parish at the time--I would have learned and probably believed that a) birth control is fine, b) women are going to be ordained priestesses soon, c) Transubstantiation is hocus pocus, d) intercommunion is fine, e) and plenty of other such stuff.

My lament here is those who seek to follow the Catholic faith increasingly do so not with the assistance of the hierarchy, but despite it, and even in the face of its hostility. Yeats's "Second Coming" seems apropos:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

John Nolan said...

Marc, +Cantuar is merely a courtesy on my part. As I type this I am listening to the Mass in E flat by Johann Nepomuk Hummel, the worthy successor to Haydn at the Esterhazy court. I remember the day in 1973 when I, an intellectually convinced but disorientated cradle Catholic chanced across Mass at the London Oratory. The setting was Haydn's Nelson Mass; the Mass was in Latin with deacon and subdeacon, ad orientem, something I had not seen in ten years. "God's in His heaven, all's right with the world".

From that day I have never looked back.

Marc said...

Ah, I wish I were close to something like that! It would surely solve a lot of problems for me.

I saw some pictures of Corpus Christi at the London Oratory on the NLM website. Very beautiful, indeed!

Gene said...

Anon 5, You nailed it with Yeats.