My commentary is below the screenshot of the “Mass”. It can only be viewed on Facebook. You can see it at this Facebook link HERE.
It is this sort of thing, which, unfortunately, is not quite rare but, rather, quite common, which has driven so many to the TLM. This simply does not happen at a TLM.
I wonder if this Mass is even valid. The Eucharistic prayer with its many ad libs is not spoken to God the Father through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. The priest is clearly using the Canon to teach the people how smart the priest his and how pious he is. He is speaking to the congregation to make himself look smart.
He changes many words of the Eucharistic prayer and adds words. Does this invalidate the Mass?
If I were attending this pedantic atrocity, I think I would have to get up and leave. And if I had the unfortunate misfortune of concelebrating this Mass, I would have to bow out. Certainly, though, there would be no genuflection coming from me.
But, the TLM is definitely the problem in the Church and the divisive form of the Mass. I want to throw up!
28 comments:
Ming the Merciful (Pope Francis) promotes bad liturgy by not suppressing it - the TLM is the solution, not the problem.
I quit watching at the 29th second. For sure, I would have fled had I mistakenly attended.
If this priest’s name was Neville, the Canon could be accurately named:
The famous or infamous Canon of Neville the Narcissist.
Interesting (as Ive been informed by professionals knowledge in psychology) that what almost all the different Cluster B personality disorders and the various “Cluster B traits” combined in different individuals etc …..have most in common is for the sufferer to be a “dramatic attention seeker”….
Priests like the above, unfairly, can, at least at times, give the many priests who offer the Mass of Paul VI reverently and correctly and with genuine devotion a bad name.
The Church managed to survive somehow (or often quite well) for almost 2,000 years without such puerile liturgical “creativity”…
I'm not someplace where I can watch this. Perhaps that's a blessing.
If the words of the Canon, for example are changed, that seems illicit, not invalid.
If the words of instition are changed, that seems to be invalid, hard stop.
Agree, not part of the TLM experience or mindset.
This generation can't help itself.
That's pretty awful. Mercifully, I've never encountered anything like that personally. (And hope I never will.)
After “Holy” I think satanic is one of Mark T’s favourite words!
Satanic is a strong word.
One of my new favourite terms is “demonic disorientation”.
Demonic disorientation is the most, or perhaps the only, charitable explanation for, (after more than 50 years of failure) any Catholic cleric, and especially any Catholic prelate, to continue to think an individual Catholic priest’s individualistic, often eccentric, often egocentric, occasionally bizarre liturgical “creativity” is okay, fine or even the right “way to go” and, importantly, will eventually bring young people back to Mass; while simultaneously doing everything possible to suppress the TLM; any even lying about and insulting those who attend the TLM….yes! Demonic disorientation is the only, I believe, charitable explanation…
Phew! What a clumsy sentence….
I apologise for the clumsiness of the above and I apologise too for having the computer/IT skills of a 10 year old and hopeless with links…..but I think THE best YouTube clip I’ve seen this year can be found by googling:
“Mass of the Ages - why Scott Hahn Attends Traditional Latin Mass”
Does any person who can watch several such YouTube clips of happy, very sane, peaceful, mature young and old people talk in detail re their love of the TLM - ever reflect and think:
Many thousands of people who watch and listen to such YouTube clips, apart from being often moved and fascinated, are going to also think something like:
“Well !! ..such and such priest, bishop, theologian etc has been telling me and others a pack of lies about the sort of person who loves the TLM…..I wonder what motivated such defamatory lies !!”
Father McDonald,
Maybe you should forward this to the Roche in Rome and ask him if this is his idea of “unity.” If not, what is he going to do about it?
Fr K,
Interesting what you wrote above.
I think it was over 40 years ago that I was aware there were at least some Catholic nuns believing, and even openly saying in front of ordinary lay Catholic people, “The very idea! The very IDEA !! WE cannot celebrate the Eucharist without a MAN !!”
Over the last 40 years, just how common or uncommon, around the world, it was for a small group of Catholic nuns to celebrate a “Mass” “…without a MAN” I honestly can’t say….
My guess, now, though = probably not that uncommon?
By the way, regarding those Catholic nuns, who in the late 70s early 80s, first started celebrating their “Mass” without a man, without a priest…….I wonder where they all are now?
Finally, I have read all three of Douglas Murray’s last published books…
There is one line in the “The Madness of Crowds” in which Murray states:
“It is a curious and revealing thing - take the sort of person who will call you a BIGOT if you raise any doubts about biological males competing in and winning female sporting events; or call you an intolerant bigot for raising any objections to “family friendly” drag shows or an insane version of modern “Gender/Queer Theory” being taught to young children etc……with near 99% certainty one then knows where that person will stand on every major political, social and cultural issue of our times.”
I thought this today when watching the above priest celebrate “HIS ‘Mass’ “ - with such a priest, I think any reasonable person could with perhaps a 90% (not 99%) certainty know with such a priest what his stand would be on almost every major social, cultural AND theological issue of our era. Just my opinion.
Paul,
Believe it or not, I knew a nun, high up in her Order, who stopped going to Mass because it was sexist that she or other women were not “ordained” to celebrate Mass. Naturally nothing was done to discipline her and thar Order is near extinction in the US
TJM,
Thanks for your reply at 12.52…
Back to your 9.08 comment, referring to a certain Ming the Merciful - I could not help recalling a great quote from Chesterton :
Children who are innocent love justice; adults who are corrupt prefer mercy.
Paul,
Spot on!
Paul said..."After “Holy” I think satanic is one of Mark T’s favourite words!"
Paul, "holy" is among my favorite words.
I have found the following interesting:
There are folks here who spew venom at Pope Francis, as well as additional Churchmen...Vatican II...the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
For example, in regard to Pope Francis, they have ascribed evil to Pope Francis...they have referred to him as...A clown, rotten, nasty, cruel...
They are keen to insist the the Vicar of Christ is rotten to the core. They speak in rotten fashion in regard to "liberal" Churchmen.
They speak in vile tones in regard to Father Kavanaugh.
They are free to employ dreadful language in regard to our Churchmen whom they despise.
But watch out should I dare to describe as "holy" a brother or sister in Jesus Christ.
Said folks are free to employ vicious descriptions of this or that person. But how dare I label as "holy" this or that person.
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Paul said..."I think satanic is one of Mark T’s favourite words!"
Paul, there are many folks here who, repeatedly, have labeled Pope Francis "evil."
Said folks have labeled countless Churchmen as "evil." They have labeled as "evil" Churchmen...that Vatican II...the Synod...on and on.
They are keen to employ the word "evil."
"Evil" is among their favorite words.
Evil. Evil. Evil.
They cannot get enough of the word "evil."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Paul,
Do you suspect that the Biden (fake Catholic) Administration and Pope Francis are teaming up to suppress traditional Catholic practice? See this:
"The Biden administration’s Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) has told a Catholic hospital in Oklahoma to put out a sanctuary candle light, a command they say violates their religious beliefs.
The federal government told Saint Francis Health System’s Senior Vice President and General Counsel Michael J. Lissau that the sanctuary candle on their premises was in violation of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services’s (CMS) fire safety requirements, the hospital says. The government says that the hospital will no longer be able to accept Medicare and Medicaid funds as long as the flame remains in the chapel. After the hospital requested a waiver, the HHS sent a letter denying the request on April 20"
Yet, Father K and other useful idiots, will proudly continue to vote for the Party that says abortion is healthcare, and 7 year olds should be able to change their gender without their parent'ss knowledge.
Mark,
In part, I agree.
Often it is simply wrong, even sinful, to call Francis evil and or a clown.
Other terms, are, I agree, more apt, for example “stupid”….
Can anyone imagine in a million years a genuinely holy pope like Pius XII, and a more modern, more liberal pop Paul VI….BUT both with VERY great diplomatic skills…..having the capacity to almost simultaneously insult and offend MANY Ukrainian believers with a quite bizarre ecumenical service in Rome and also the next day offend millions of good faithful, orthodox Russian believers by calling their Russian Orthodox Patriarch and bishop “Putin’s Altar Boy” ?!
Now that, and words and actions like it over a decade, are almost certainly not best described as evil……but to use the word “stupid” is not only more accurate (if not at times an understatement!) but also more charitable, would you agree, Mark?
To finish, Mark, the Church thinks in centuries; the true Church knows it’s true history, including the true history of certain popes and papacies of the 10th, 15th and early 16th century…..how can any loyal Catholic, who loves his Church, and can struggle valiantly under difficult circumstances to follow its teachings, be called sinful or satanic for calling a stupid pope stupid or calling a catastrophically bad papacy catastrophic …..hmmm?
Mark,
I agree it is wrong to call Francis a “clown” !
It is especially wrong in the sense that right now in the Vatican there are at least a dozen high ranking Monsignors, archbishops, even Cardinals (chosen by Francis and helping Francis) who are SO VERY much MORE deserving of the title “clown”…
- don’t you agree, Mark?
Some believe Francis has been unfairly maligned in our times, but will probably go down in history as a man of heroic virtue in attempting to rule a Church, actually, The Church, while surrounded by a whole troop of clowns….
I think it true that probably very few popes in history have had to attempt to rule and govern The Church with many leading prelates in Rome undertaking a sort of years long performance……an ecclesiastical version of “The Three Stooges”….?!
Mark,
Trust me, please…
This is NOT meant at all to be nasty or insulting…
Seek help, please; spiritual and or psychological…help.
Seek some help; for your own sake, and for the sake of those who love you.
Okay?
Regards,
Your brother in Christ..
Paul.
PS - and just a friendly suggestion from a probably much older man..
For God’s sake, Mark. Take some time off from your online crusade to defend Francis…he has a legion, thousands, of full time, well paid defenders around the world…
Mark, why not turn off your phone and or computer more often, get offline, and have a few beers or a coffee talking to another Christian brother, face to face….have a laugh and relax…
Mark, for all I know you may already at times do as I advise;
If so, I suggest you do it a LOT more often!
TJM:
Keep your shirt on. Like you perhaps, my first thought was that the Biden Administration was overreaching and committing a First Amendment free exercise violation. But then I decided to do some digging for context. My first discovery was that the outrage machine has cranked up into high gear over the hospital sanctuary candle issue, including indeed the threat of litigation invoking the First Amendment free exercise clause. But then I read the letter from the HHS linking the relevant regulations and the Policy Memorandum. Here is the HHS letter:
https://becketnewsite.s3.amazonaws.com/20230502211111/CMS-Response-St.-Francis-Health-System-4-20-23.pdf
And here are the regulations and the Policy Memorandum (see answer to Q. 14)
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-42/chapter-IV/subchapter-G/part-482/subpart-C/section-482.41
https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Provider-Enrollment-and-Certification/SurveyCertificationGenInfo/downloads/SCletter07-07.pdf
Having read these materials, I can see the problem. And here is the likely solution:
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/electric-sanctuary-candles-4425
Electric Sanctuary Candles
ROME, 27 MAY 2008 (ZENIT)
Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.
Q: I was told by our pastor that "Vatican II requires a 'light' before the Blessed Sacrament, but this does not have to be a candle," so he replaced the sanctuary candle with an electric "fake candle" because there was "wax all over the carpet." This is driving some of my fellow choir members nuts. Yet, we still have real, seven-day vigil candles going in the stands. Were this a safety issue, this makes no sense. All churches have always had problems with wax — nothing new. I cannot see a fake candle giving a believable witness to the Real Presence when this is not a safety issue as in a hospital with oxygen that could cause an explosion. — K.S., Oklahoma
[continued]
A: Actually the norms refer not so much to candles as to lamps that should burn before the tabernacle. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), No. 316, states:
"In accordance with traditional custom, near the tabernacle a special lamp, fueled by oil or wax, should be kept alight to indicate and honor the presence of Christ."
An almost identical norm is given in Canon 940 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, but here only a "special lamp" is spoken of. It would thus appear that the more recent GIRM, in specifically mentioning that it should be fueled by oil or wax, gives clear preference to this form over other recent innovations.
Thus, rather than a candle there should be a lamp, that is, a container made of glass or some other suitable material, which can hold the oil or wax.
This container is customarily a red hued cylinder, although this is not prescribed by law and other shapes and colors have also been used.
Unless the lamp is shattered or filled to excess, it usually presents no particular safety issue. Likewise, since nothing is spilled, the "wax on the floor" argument falls flat.
The oil may be of any kind, although the law has traditionally favored olive oil or some other vegetable oil.
The use of electric lamps is not forbidden but is generally seen as a last resort solution for particular circumstances.
Apart from the hospital situation mentioned by our reader, an electric sanctuary lamp could conceivably be used in very small oratory chapels where the constant lamp smoke would quickly stain the walls and ceiling or, for the same reason, if the lamp had to be placed next to a historic piece of art.
Other probable circumstances that would justify the use of an electric lamp would be isolated places in which obtaining suitable fuel is difficult or very expensive, or if a chapel has to be left unattended for a period longer than the habitual duration of the lamp. This can happen, for example, in communities where a priest celebrates Mass only about once a month and leaves sufficient hosts for an extraordinary minister of holy Communion to administer on the other Sundays.
No need for outrage, no need for litigation. Just approach it as a lawyer seeking a commonsense solution (unless our resident priests tell us the above analysis is faulty).
P.S. Some additional helpful context would be to know whether this issue has come up before and, if so, how other Catholic hospitals have responded, both in the United States and elsewhere.
Mark J.
TJM,
Interesting times, indeed!
I think I read “may you live in interesting times!” is some old Chinese, Confucian or Buddhist inspired, CURSE…
I think there is a lot of truth in that old Chinese curse or Chinese saying….however, my personal opinion is this:
I think the word “occult” means or implies: hidden.
I honestly believe genuine dark, evil, occult forces AND the individuals, the organisations and institutions these forces influence etc…is, or has over the past decade become so full on flagrant and out in the open to be truly mind (and soul) boggling…
It has never been so clear re : not just : what is GOOD vs what is BAD…..but anything decent, sane, humane, honourable etc vs EVIL and Madness… and so on = all this has never been so clear cut !!
And TJM,
With the multiple examples of bizarre incompetence, double standards, duplicity, corruption etc re the Biden “Administration” over the past 2 plus years; plus add to that, everything that has been revealed in the Church since 2018…..myself and my nearest and dearest have, after shock and sadness, chosen, mostly, to MOCK and laugh (laugh out LOUD) at most of the rulers of Church and State in our “very interesting times” era….
Mark,
Why now and why this? I think you know the answer. Just like taking away Catholic services at Walter Reed during Holy Week and demanding abortion on demand, drag queens and mutilation surgeries for minors - the Biden Administration is evil, on moral pare with the Nazis
TJM:
No, I don’t know the answer, and if you put on your lawyer’s hat instead of whatever hat it is you wear when you comment here, you would admit that you don’t know the answer either. As a lawyer, you of all people should know that there are competing narratives in any case and that a judicious approach does not buy into either one of them unless and until all relevant voices have been heard, all relevant arguments made, and all relevant evidence presented.
Perhaps after all this has occurred, you will be warranted in concluding that the narrative that the Biden Administration is engaged in a “war on religion” is correct, but not before. If so, then that answers your question “why now and why this?” But perhaps instead we will learn that this is not a new issue at all but just made to appear so by the anti-Biden political outrage machine. That is why I suggested that some additional helpful context would be to know whether this issue has come up before and, if so, how other Catholic hospitals have responded, both in the United States and elsewhere.
The same applies to the Walter Reed hospital issue. It turns out that the contract with the Franciscans was not “terminated” at all but simply expired and was not renewed because there was a lower bidder. It also seems that Catholic services did indeed continue during Holy Week but that they were not provided by the Franciscans. I do agree it is very unfortunate the Franciscans were not renewed, given that they had been providing such services for twenty years, and the timing of the expiration of the contract was terrible (presumably in part because Easter was later this year). It is also very sad that so much in the United States (and the West more generally) turns on money (as in awarding a new contract to the lowest bidder), but that is the culture in which we live. For all of this and more on this still developing story see:
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2023/04/walter-reed-says-catholic-services-continue-at-hospital
TJM:
I also agree that we have lost our moral compass. For a discussion of Valentin Tomberg’s argument that this is because legal positivism has reduced law to the merely human, see Brian McCall’s recent article, at pp. 14-23:
https://ecommons.udayton.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1750&context=udlr
And for McCall’s excellent book length proposal to restore “the architecture of law” see
https://www.amazon.com/Architecture-Law-Rebuilding-Classical-Tradition/dp/026810333X
TJM:
Here is another example of how we have lost our moral compass, and you cannot blame the Biden Administration alone (and its immigration policy) for this one:
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/04/1173697113/immigrant-child-labor-crisis
As always, we need to know more of course, but prima facie it is not complimentary of the morality of the relevant businesses. Perhaps they should pay workers more so that others would be willing to do the work (and, if necessary, consumers should be willing to pay more/tighten belts and/or shareholders should expect less return):
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/04/1173697113/immigrant-child-labor-crisis
“Dreier: One thing employers told me again and again is that they are struggling to find people to do this grueling work. Nobody wants to take the night shift. Nobody wants to work on the cleaning crew at the slaughterhouse. And so companies are turning to staffing agencies to try to fill these shifts — and the staffing agencies are then bringing in children. One thing I was surprised to learn is that child labor is almost never a criminal offense. It's a civil issue, and the maximum fine is $15,000. So when we're talking about a company like Pepsi or Wal-Mart, they're going to make that back in a matter of minutes, maybe seconds. Even when a child dies, these companies stay in business and continue on. I found one recent case where a 15-year-old fell from a 50-foot roof in Alabama. His employer paid a fine, but they're still operating and have just sort of continued on.”
And be sure to notice this passage in the NPR piece:
“Meanwhile, Washington Post business reporter Jacob Bogage says a Florida-based conservative think tank called the Foundation for Government Accountability and its lobbying group, the Opportunity Solutions Project, are spearheading an effort to relax child labor laws across the country. Just last month, the Iowa Senate passed a bill allowing minors as young as 14 to work night shifts, and states like Missouri and Ohio are considering bills that would allow teenagers to work longer hours in jobs that were previously deemed too dangerous.”
Again, we need to know more, but it does not look good.
Mark,
I thought you should read this. Sounds like the evil Biden adminstration has backed off its ludicrous position on the candles:
"The Department of Health and Humans Services has folded on its demand that Catholic hospitals in Tulsa-based St. Francis Healthcare System extinguish the Eternal Flame candle burning it is chapel Confronted with a lawsuit that it was doomed to lose over an indefensible position contrary to law, HHS’s Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services agreed to grant a waiver to the bizarre inspection finding that concluded that a single beeswax candle on a wall sconce enclosed in glass constituted a fire hazard to patients."
I think my lawyer's hat is doing just fine. I worked as a healthcare attorney for 30 years at an international law firm and I am quite familiar with over-reach by The Joint Commission and HHS. But everything the Biden Administration has done is to attack Catholic facilities and organizations. Little or no action, on going after thugs who attack Catholic Churces and Family Health Centers, not protecting Supreme Court justices following the overturning of Roe, FBI infiltrating Latin Mass Communities, pushing aggressive Transgender policies (transgenders = mentally ill), etc. Here's just a brief list of the lunacy of the Biden Administration in that regard:
"Biden’s Pentagon Doctors Claim Seven-Year-Olds Can Consent to Puberty Blockers.
Biden’s DOJ challenges Tennessee’s ban on genital mutilation.
In Zeal for Transgenderism, 2 Blue States Poised to Muscle Parents Out, Get Control of Their Kids.
Washington Passes Bill Allowing Children to Legally Be Taken from Parents if Parents Don’t Consent to Gender Mutilation.
Children’s Hospital in Oregon Offers Consultations on Transgender Treatments to Kids Younger Than 10.
Bearded Man with Hairy Chest Featured on Cover of Bridal Magazine.
Planned Parenthood Now Sells Millions in Hormones to Mutilate Children— often while explicitly withholding this information from parents."
I suspect you are unaware of these matters because you get your "news" from so-called mainstream sources, who generally suppress news which makes the Democratic Party look insane (which they are). I cannot imagine you suppoort this, but if you cast a vote for that Party, you are giving them the power to pursue this insanity. When you come up with a list of Republicans supporting intrinsic evil, I will be happy to review it.
Take care,
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