First, look at the pictures below. Which Mass captures the imagination of the young which will remain with them until their dying breath? I would say it is the Mass that conveys the sacred, reverence and transcendence. It is the Mass that is not ordinary but extraordinary in style and attention to detail.
Can the Modern Vernacular Mass as it is celebrated in most places capture the imagination of the young and not so young as the TLM does. NO! NO! NO!
Can the Modern Vernacular Mass celebrated like a TLM, although in the vernacular, with rubrics that allow a TLM ethos capture the imagination of the young and not so young? YES! YES! YES!
My constant prayer, every time I pray for the pope in the Canon of the Mass, is my hope that the next pope go back to the future, not 1970, with Pope Benedict’s liberal allowance of the TLM and may that lead to Pope Benedict’s desire that the Modern Vernacular Mass look, feel and sound like the TLM—that’s the way forward if we want to be a young Church for the young who will remain in the Church until they are old and dead.
After these photos, I post a Rorate Caeli article about La Croix’s finding that the young and not so young love the TLM while also appreciating the MVM. La Croix can be a liberal rag or fish wrap or a crock, like the NCR, but with this article they get it!
(This Mass is the MVM but with TLM sensibilities:)
La Croix: "Exclusive Survey - Traditional Mass: a Rite that attracts Young Catholics"
Traditional Mass: a rite that attracts young Catholics
EXCLUSIVE SURVEY: between sacredness, tradition and identity, some young French Catholics are attracted to the Tridentine Mass. The 2023 edition of the Chartres pilgrimage is set to break attendance records, thanks in no small part to young people.
***
A first in living memory. The Chartres pilgrimage, organized by the Notre-Dame de Chrétienté association, is sold out this Pentecost weekend: a record 16,000 walkers are expected. And for the first time in the history of this pilgrimage, in which Mass is celebrated using pre-conciliar missals, the organizers have been forced to close registrations in the face of the influx of pilgrims, half of whom are under the age of 20.
Can we conclude from this that the "Trad" mass is really making an impression on young people? At the very least, some of them like it. According to a survey carried out by La Croix among participants at the WYD in Lisbon, 38% of them say they appreciate this liturgy: 8% say it's their favorite Mass, 11% say they like it as much as the French Mass, and 19% attend it occasionally. In many churches, 18-35 year-olds make up a large part of the congregation, "a good third, not counting the children", according to several of them in various French dioceses.
"A Sense of the sacred"
37 comments:
This will grieve The Roche and anger his mean boss
TLM mreans peace, order, prayer, because it enables us to focus on Jesus Christ and not on disorderly happenings in the pews and in the sanctuary. The medium and the massege it mediates are in perfact harmony.
Young people are attracted to authenticity. Evidently, the real and perceived contrivances that accompany many celebrations of the NO are, recognized as such, and rejected.
ByzRus,
You distilled the issue nicely.
Father McDonald said..."...my hope that the next pope go back to the future, not 1970, with Pope Benedict’s liberal allowance of the TLM and may that lead to Pope Benedict’s desire that the Modern Vernacular Mass look, feel and sound like the TLM—that’s the way forward if we want to be a young Church for the young who will remain in the Church until they are old and dead."
Pope Saint John Paul II's gallant attempt to obtain liturgical peace had failed. Therefore, Pope Benedict XVI established a new liturgical peace plan.
Unfortunately, more than a few "traditionalists" rejected Pope Benedict XVI's liturgical peace plan.
Such key figures of the TLM movement as Peter Kwasniewski denounced Pope Benedict XVI's liturgical peace plan as having been built upon false, unsustainable teachings.
More than a few "traditionalists" reject the notion that the TLM, and Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, can coexist peacefully. Said folks have insisted that it is the TLM only...the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI must be destroyed.
For eight years, Pope Francis had maintained the failure that was Summorum Pontificum. Pope Francis has moved the Church beyond said failure.
I believe that little remains beyond the following offered by Father McDonald:
"Can the Modern Vernacular Mass celebrated like a TLM, although in the vernacular, with rubrics that allow a TLM ethos capture the imagination of the young and not so young? YES! YES! YES!"
Other than that, I do not see as to how, or why, the Church would desire to return to failed liturgical peace plans.
As Pope Benedict XVI had declared, "...the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite..."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Of course, Mark, the far greater crisis are the multitudes of priests and parishes who do not celebrate the Modern Mass properly, meaning multiple liturgical abuses. The number of traditionalists who have gone off the rails is minuscule compared to those who celebrate the modern Mass, promote heretical and heterodox ideologies, who do not believe what the Church teaches about the Real Presence and believe women can become bishops, priests, deacons, in fact, gender fluidity should characterize the priesthood. Marriage too is corrupted by those who exclusively celebrate a perverted Modern Mass and they far, far outnumber the off-the-rails traditionalists who simply don’t like this pope. But let’s pretend the Traditionalists are the real problem.
Father McDonald said..."Of course, Mark, the far greater crisis are the multitudes of priests and parishes who do not celebrate the Modern Mass properly, meaning multiple liturgical abuses. The number of traditionalists who have gone off the rails is minuscule compared to those who celebrate the modern Mass, promote heretical and heterodox ideologies, who do not believe what the Church teaches about the Real Presence and believe women can become bishops, priests, deacons, in fact, gender fluidity should characterize the priesthood."
Father McDonald, you are correct...100 percent correct.
To borrow your word, "minuscule," the amount of "traditionalists" within the Church is, speaking relatively, minuscule. Unfortunately, "traditionalists" who, to borrow your term, have "gone off the rails," constitute a problem for Holy Mother Church.
Therefore, the Church must address that problem as She loves each of Her spiritual children. Said folks deserve the Church's attention. The Church is called to lead Her "off the rails" children to the Truth.
Unfortunately, throughout the decades, more than a few "traditionalists" have rejected the liturgical peace that Popes Saint Paul VI, Saint John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Francis had proposed.
===============================================================================
Father McDonald said..."But let’s pretend the Traditionalists are the real problem."
Again, said folks, even if, speaking relatively, their presence within the Church is miniscule, constitute a problem that the Church must address.
Father McDonald, as a holy priest, I am certain that you desire the Church to minister to Her "off the rails" children. I am certain that you desire "off the rails" Catholics to return to the path that leads to the Truth.
May each "off the rails" Catholic follow Pope Benedict XVI's holy example: That is, grant his/her "unconditional reverence and obedience" to Pope Francis.
It is via full communion with Rome that said folks will will find peace.
Father McDonald thank you for your reply...as well as the opportunity to respond to you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
You are truly the most delusional person I have ever encountered on a blog. Seek help and quit wasting our time with your nonsense.
Fr Allan,
Thank you! And amen 🙏 !!
Father McDonald said..."But let’s pretend the Traditionalists are the real problem."
Father McDonald, to follow up in regard to the above:
As you had noted, there are, speaking relatively, a "miniscule" amount of "traditionalists" within the Church. Among said folks, there are those who, to employ your phrase, have "gone off the rails."
Why should the Church concern Herself with just a handful of said folks? Pope Benedict XVI answered that question.
Speaking relatively, the SSPX, for example, are comprised of a miniscule amount of priests.
Therefore, why should the Church fret over the SSPX? As Pope Benedict XVI said of the SSPX:
"Should we casually let them drift farther from the Church?"
In turn, should the Church watch as "off the rails" "traditionalists" drift farther from the Church?
One may argue that the Church has greater problems to address than the issue of a miniscule amount of off-the-rails "traditionalists." Nevertheless, said souls are precious to Holy Mother Church.
Therefore, the Church has every reason to offer correction to prevent "off the rails" traditionalists from drifting even farther from the Church.
Unfortunately, said folks, as they had done in regard to Pope Benedict XVI, have refused to grant "unconditional reverence and obedience" to Pope Francis.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark,
Please wake up!
"Traditionalists" are "off the rails" ?!
Who, which or what traditional Catholic individual or traditional Community, group or Society et al is "off the rails" hmmm?
And (specifically, Mark!) in what ways are which traditional Catholics drifting away from the Church, away from the Faith etc... ay?
And off the rails compared to what? The majority of the Catholic bishops in Germany or Belgium; and many in Italy; or compared to Jesuit and or Paulist Order clerics in the USA?
Mark,
Please wake up!
"Traditionalists" are "off the rails" ?!
Who, which or what traditional Catholic individual or traditional Community, group or Society et al is "off the rails" hmmm?
And (specifically, Mark!) in what ways are which traditional Catholics drifting away from the Church, away from the Faith etc... ay?
And off the rails compared to what? The majority of the Catholic bishops in Germany or Belgium; and many in Italy; or compared to Jesuit and or Paulist Order clerics in the USA?
Mark,
It is because many traditional Catholics ( and many conservative Catholics too) have reverence for the office of the papacy that often a traditional or conservative or ordinary Catholic etc has problems with at least some of what Francis actually says! And at other times, by a lot of what Francis says..
Paul said...""Traditionalists" are "off the rails" ?! Who, which or what traditional Catholic individual or traditional Community, group or Society et al is "off the rails" hmmm?"
Paul, thank you for your responses.
Paul, I will respond (Father McDonald-permitting) in greater detail to your questions.
For now, you may also wish to address your above questions to Father McDonald.
Please note that today, at 4:31 A.M., Father McDonald declared that there are "traditionalists who have gone off the rails..."
Father McDonald, throughout the years, has often made that point. Father McDonald, and I, have differed in regard to the general amount of said folks.
Nevertheless, Father McDonald, and I, agree that there are "traditionalists" who have "gone off the rails."
Paul, is it your opinion that there are not examples of "traditionalists" who have gone off the rails?
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas' "expert" pontificating about Traditionalists has about as much credibility as Biden's claims about White Supremacists being the greatest threat to America.
However, I DO think we've all been a bit too quick to judge Mark Thomas. And we don't yet have what we need in order to do so--that will come later.
At some point, (probably after a very harsh chastisement that most of us probably won't survive), we will get a pope who will restore orthodoxy and sanity and he will make some corrective proclamations and motu proprios regarding this current pope. THAT is when we can judge Mark Thomas. If he defends his current idol, we will know he is truly delusional. If he goes along with the correcting pope, we will know that he is just an opportunistic brown-nose.
Neither possibility looks very promising.
Paul said..."Who, which or what traditional Catholic individual or traditional Community, group or Society et al is "off the rails" hmmm?"
Paul:
-- The SSPX is off the rails. The SSPX has, for decades, refused to enter into full-communion with our holy Popes.
Pope Benedict XVI noted that the SSPX suffers from doctrinal issues that "concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes."
Pope Benedict XVI stated that "the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church."
-- New Catholic (Rorate Caeli) is off the rails.
-- The Remnant is off the rails.
-- Peter Kwasniewski, who has issued countless bizarre declarations, is off the rails.
Just one such mind-boggling example: Peter Kwasniewski denounced Summorum Pontificum as a muddle, dreadful document that Pope Benedict had packed with lies.
Peter Kwasniewski has insisted that Pope Francis is guilty of heresy...and that we have the right, even duty, to reject the Magisterium.
-- "Traditionalists" who have thrown in with Archbishop Viganò, a proven liar, are off the rails.
-- "Traditionalists" who have insisted that Pope Francis is an anti-Pope are off the rails.
-- Bishop Williamson is off the rails.
-- "Traditionalists" who have rejected Pope Francis' God-given teaching authority are off the rails.
-- "Traditionalists" who have signed open letters that have accused Pope Francis of having promoted unorthodox teachings are off the rails.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Sorry this is off topic (in one sense):
A former UK colleague said to me yesterday:
It is natural for some of the USA's enemies abroad to regard the the USA as a "rogue nation" ; this has been the case since Vietnam.
However, the situation in the past 2 years is worse in several ways! A number of nations, a number of groups/organisations etc right now in May 2023 regard the USA as not only a "rogue nation" but as a rogue nation now being led by an administration that is not only evil in a moral sense (a moral sense of MANY people in MANY nations) but also weak and incompetent politically and diplomatically !!
How things could play out over next 2 years is anyone's guess!
Mark,
If I make this assignment my last; I may take my pension half in a lump sum, and purchase either a cafe or a wine bar in a certain US state, where in X city there is: a beautiful Catholic Cathedral, a SSPX Priory only 20 minutes drive away. And this beautiful Catholic Cathedral is also less than a 2 miles drive from a major railway station.
Thx to you, Mark, I think I have a good name for my cafe (or wine bar) :
"The Off The Rails Cafe."
Once this purchase is made and my Off The Rails Cafe is up and running - Mark, you'll be welcome any time for a large coffee (with a double nip of OP rum if you so fancy) and you can show me, perhaps, a selection of your best Pope Francis memorabilia and I'm afraid I'll trump that with a copy of The Council of Trent, signed by Archbishop Lefebvre... Okay 😉 ?!
My first post-TLM Mass featured the priest adding his "personal flair" to every prayer in the proper of the Mass...and the deacon told us to wish each other "happy birthday" at the sign of peace. Reason #137 why people prefer the TLM
Paul, i would tilt back some brews there. Be sure to carry as much local and nearby brews, vintages, and distillations as possible. Do they have food trucks where you are? They are sn awesome way to put variety in your menu.
Jerome Merwick said..."Jerome Merwick said..."Mark Thomas' "expert" pontificating about Traditionalists has about as much credibility as Biden's claims about White Supremacists being the greatest threat to America."
Mister Merwick, you are an expert pontificator as you offer your opinions...strong opinions...here. Correct?
I take it that each person who posts his, or her, opinions here...strong opinions...is an expert pontificator.
===============================================================================
Jerome Merwick said..."At some point, (probably after a very harsh chastisement that most of us probably won't survive), we will get a pope who will restore orthodoxy and sanity and he will make some corrective proclamations and motu proprios regarding this current pope."
Mister Merwick, welcome to the expert pontificator club. You are an expert pontificator in regard to your all-knowing look into the future.
:-)
You, as an expert pontificator, have assured us that "we will get a pope who will restore orthodoxy and sanity and he will make some corrective proclamations and motu proprios regarding this current pope."
Oh, speaking about one's credibility... There is one pesky problem in regard to your scenario in question.
The Church has guaranteed from the dawn of Her existence to date, that the Pope will always preserve immaculate the Catholic Religion.
Is that not the case in regard to Pope Francis? Is Pope Francis not our living guarantor of unity and orthodoxy?
Has God entrusted the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to somebody other than Pope Francis?
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Paul said..."Thx to you, Mark, I think I have a good name for my cafe (or wine bar) : "The Off The Rails Cafe."
Paul, if your cafe has an SSPX-related theme...
You can have a sign post with large wooden arrows that point in different directions to cities.
New York...1,500 miles.
Paris...3,500 miles.
Modernist Rome...4,000 miles.
-- You will need some slogans:
"The SSPX has the truth. Vatican II was a goof."
"Our supposed doctrinal deviations existed only in our Popes' imaginations."
"We hang up the phone when Francis calls about full-communion with Rome."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark,
Can you imagine a Pope Francis-theme Cafe or Truck Stop or a Francis-theme wine bar?
What would the decor and art works on display be like and what background music would be playing; and what would be on the menu?
Mark, you've got me thinking!
But for such thinking to be creatively successful it requires the right assistance of 2 after dinner Francis-Pachamama Cocktails -
ingredients:
3 nips of Amazonian moonshine.
1 nip of snake oil.
200 ml of poor quality cooking claret.
Stirred not shaken.
And then gulped down in one impulsive big swallow!
Mark, unnamed but usually reliable sources have revealed that Pope Francis has almost always indulged in some, at times all, of the above named Pachamama Cocktail ingredients - before announcing to the City and the World his most holiest and profound Truths and theological insights!
Marky!
Then there could be for brunch a Cardinal Roach Special:
A large slab of Yorkshire Fruitcake - quite nutty.
A large mug of Earl Grey Tea laced with 3 nips of backyard distilled Yorkshire gin.
For only $6.50!
Mark, my lad,
Australia (which since 1942 has been militarily and diplomatically the 51st State of America...)
Cannot be forgotten on this menu-
A lunch time trucker special will be:
The Bishop Morris lunch time special:
A slab of medium rare meat - good quality Wombat or Kangaroo roadkill meat....washed down with
a pint and a half of STRONG Deep Southern Highlands Bundanoon Homebrew Sparkling Ale!
Only $8.99!
Mark, my lad,
Australia (which since 1942 has been militarily and diplomatically the 51st State of America...)
Cannot be forgotten on this menu-
A lunch time trucker special will be:
The Bishop Morris lunch time special:
A slab of medium rare meat - good quality Wombat or Kangaroo roadkill meat....washed down with
a pint and a half of STRONG Deep Southern Highlands Bundanoon Homebrew Sparkling Ale!
Only $8.99!
This cafe/wine bar/truck stop, Marky, will or could have a late night-out the back Ladies Lounge Bar:
Entry will be allowed for all persons simply identifying as female or dressed in ANY female attire...and:
The juke box there will only be allowed to play the most banal 1970s "hit" songs.
...over and over and over again...
and only 2 drinks will be served in this Ladies Lounge - your standard Jesuit Appletinis at $10 a 120 ml glass and - what we will claim - is a fine Argentinian Brandy liquor at $15 a shot (which will actually be an Argentinian slum beverage produced by an LGBT collective of Argentinian seminarians and defrocked Argentinian Jesuits which we will import at $15 a 100 litre keg)...
Mark, would you care to make an investment in this new small business venture - or perhaps if you need a second job - (in the great Francis Catholic Tradition) we could employ you as our head doorman, bouncer and security officer at the Cardinal McCarrick Truck Stop Ladies' Lounge?
Marky, finally:
Whatever your present means of livelihood - why not forget about that!
At the New (Quick) Order - Off the Rails - Truck Stop...
Come work for us, and:
You'll have a cash in hand wage.
Tips.
Access to the best Novus Ordo Church gossip..
And whether you be flipping burgers or working out back as head doorman and head of security in our "Ladies Lounge"
We will provide gratis 3 Swiss Guard uniforms!
Okay?
Mark Thomas,
You probably have a point inasmuch as I DO have strong opinions and have not been hesitant to share them. Whereas your weakness appears to be a certain smugness and sanctimony, mine is more of an intemperate disgust. Regardless this IS a forum where people share their opinions and, frankly, I haven't been sharing to many of mine lately because this entire enterprise is getting too predictable and seems to be just a continuing re-run.
That said, I think a credible argument can be made about YOUR pontifications, which share two glaring characteristics:
A). A slavish presumption that every utterance that falls from Bergoglio's lips are utterly infallible. Papal infallibility has very clear and well-defined limitations. You seem to have erased such limitations and, well, it's all too apparent in your frequent defense of the indefensible.
B). Your equally naive presumption that "Francis" is a validly elected pope. There is a plethora of information available in books and on the internet that strongly suggest that a "Sankt Gallen Mafia" CLEARLY VIOLATED CANON LAW in their engineering of the election of Bergoglio. If you were actually willing to address the evidence of this story that will not go away, you might extract a modicum of credibility.
But again, you deflect my final point and try to make it about me--which is fine--but still doesn't address the only two possibilities that could explain your denial of reality: Either you actually DO buy into the Francischurch "new ecclesiology" of Bergoglio's sales campaign, or you are just an opportunistic kiss-up. Again, neither one of those looks too good.
But hey, that's just MY "pontification". What do I know?
Actually I DO know one thing--something a champion of the Counter Reformation, St. Robert Bellarmine left us with: Once a pontiff becomes a heretic, he ceases to be pope.
Is Bergoglio a heretic? I'm not qualified to say, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Jerome Merwick,
Thank you for having replied to me.
In regard to my point about your being an "expert pontificator" (is "pontificate" pejorative?):
I had done a poor job to convey the following: I was actually being a bit lighthearted with you.
That is, I have found it a funny whenever my comments here have been characterized as pompous...pontificating...strident...expert...all-knowing..
Everybody else who comments here is just as pompous, pontificating, strident, expert, and all-knowing.
Said folks are free to "pontificate expertly" in regard to "Bergoglio" being a rotten man and Pope...Vatican II is garbage...the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI is spiritual poison...unrelenting in regard to their opinions....strident to the core.
Anyway, I am not bothered by the negativity that is directed at me. I smile at the double-standard in question.
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Jerome Merwick - 100%
Mark Thomas - 0%
The words I would use to describe PF cannot be printed here or any other decent venue
Jerome Merick said..."Whereas your weakness appears to be a certain smugness and sanctimony, mine is more of an intemperate disgust."
I reject that I am smug and sanctimonious.
However, I recognize that I am an awful sinner. I have inflicted countless wounds upon Jesus Christ. I am in dire need of Jesus' mercy and forgiveness.
"Regardless this IS a forum where people share their opinions and, frankly, I haven't been sharing to many of mine lately because this entire enterprise is getting too predictable and seems to be just a continuing re-run."
We are aware of each other's opinions. Each of us repeats the same thing over and over.
Each of us here is unrelenting in his, or her, beliefs.
Mister Merwick, speaking generally, "your" side here despises Pope Francis, he is about the worst Pope in history...he is hateful, rotten, evil...
Conversely, in line with Pope Benedict XVI, I offer my "unconditional reverence and obedience" to Pope Francis.
I am certain that before we open any thread here, each of can predict with tremendous accuracy Father McDonald's take on the topic...your take, my take... Again, we are all but certain as to the manner in which each of us will comment. But I enjoy commenting here.
I will exchange comments with those who disagree with me...except when said folks are nasty...insulting. In turn, I try not to insult other folks.
If I have done so, then I apologize for that.
Thank you, Mister Merwick. Peace and good health to you and your family.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mister Merwick, from 2013 A.D., each diocese and Eparchy upon earth has proclaimed repeatedly that Pope Francis is our orthodox Pope.
Mister Merwick, in regard to the above, please accept the True Church's unrelenting testimony.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"I reject that I am smug and sanctimonious.
"However, I recognize that I am an awful sinner. I have inflicted countless wounds upon Jesus Christ. I am in dire need of Jesus' mercy and forgiveness."
You couldn't ask for a more predictable, boilerplate response than this...it almost sounds as if Bill Clinton was a Catholic! It's the typical public figure "confession" wherein the accused denies the accusation (of course) then gives a vague admission that "I am a sinner' or "I've made mistakes". Such disclosures are empty and meaningless.
However there is one great kernel of truth in Mr. Thomas' prolix blather: "We are aware of each other's opinions. Each of us repeats the same thing over and over." And how.
Finally, the most dishonest lying words must be addressed:
"Mister Merwick, speaking generally, "your" side here despises Pope Francis, he is about the worst Pope in history...he is hateful, rotten, evil..."
Lying, disingenuous twaddle. Most of the criticisms I have read of this pope aren't about hating him. Like the LGBT and race-hustling activists, MT must legitimize his position by painting his opponents in falsely dramatic colors, not that observing this is going to stop him from doing so.
Mark's atttitude to traditionalists is the same as that of the abusive spouse to the one s/he abuses:
Why do you make me hit you?
Here's a deal Mark:
I'll pay you $100 for every traditionalist you can cite and demonstrate as fitting your "off the rails" description.
But...
You will pay me $1 for everyone I can cite who loves the TLM and isn't off the rails.
Deal?
Heck, we could make it 50 cents -- I'd still make out like a bandit.
Father Fox,
Good to hear from you - a voice of common sense. I pray all is well in your world!
Fr Fox,
Notice how "Mr Non Sequitur" has not taken up your offer? Typical, dump and run
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