Sunday best means different things to different Christian cultures. In the USA, a melting pot of cultures, Sunday best up to the 1970’s meant coat and tie, dress shoes for men and modest dresses and head covering for women.
In warmer climates, the coat for a man might have been optional but not shirt and tie. Most, though, would not forgo the suit or at least a sports coat.
Today, the laity wear the frumpy, dumpy look that is beyond casual. Yes, many still wear what once was called “Sunday best” but not all.
T-shirts and shorts, even short shorts (Daisy Duke shorts) are quite common along with flip flops on both men and women.
But look at this liturgical disconnect photo. The priest is dressed to the nines. The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, not so much.
I am not opposed to EMs if they are needed. I would hope that the formal ministry of acolyte which is now allowed for both men and women, would include the wearing of the alb for this ministry. The same for lector!
30 comments:
It looks like the Extraordinary Minister in the photo is dressed "to the nines" for his culture and climate.
Coats and ties are Western forms of "proper" dress, while other places and cultures have their own "Sunday Best" attire.
FrMJK, you are proving my point about being incoherent and liturgically disconnected. The EM is in a formal ministry of the Mass, distributing the Most Precious Body and Blood of our Lord to Communicants. His fellow cultural wayfarer next to him is a priest in a liturgical role and Mass and appropriately dress for so awesome a responsibility. If he decided to sit in the pew and not be the celebrant, sure, that priest could wear a short cleave clerical shirt. On top of that, the lay altar server is dressed in an alb, an important liturgical role but not as important as the EM, yet the EM is dressed down for so important a role while the altar boy has a liturgical coherence and connect. I suggest you follow the altar boy's example.
Fr K,
For a guy running a parish you sure seem to spend a lot of time posting and supporting the Party of Moloch
Fr. AJM,
I'm not agreeing with your assessment on this one.
First, I don't care for photos of the administration of sacraments, particularly people being communed. In the East, both Catholic and Orthodox, many will not photograph this, myself included as I dabble with event photography from time to time.
Agree with Fr. MJK, coats/ties is western. You alluded to this.
The EMHC, from what I can see, appears to be in upscale casual type of dress for the Philippines. There's nothing wrong with his attire to my eye.
It sounds as though you are implying that anyone serving a liturgical role should at a minimum wear an alb. I've seen this done regarding EMHC and the rightness/wrongness aside, it creates a uniform, makes them easily identifiable and removes the street clothes issue that I believe you are spotlighting. Really, and to me, you are spotlighting a clash of worlds, secular and spiritual more than fashion.
Regarding attire, generally, and probably to the dismay of some, I'm more in the "come as you are camp". Graphic T's, revealing attire on anyone isn't appropriate for church but at the same time, I'm not of the mind to be critical of people simply trying....which is so hard in today's world....to be part of the life of the Church. I don't know people's financial situation, you name it. In Ukraine, I assure you Sunday best might not be the focus for those trying to attend in the warzone. I think you will see my point.
Fr McDonald, I hate to agree with your antagonist (😉) but this looks like a barong, a traditional and quite formal shirt, of filipino origin. I have several and wear them to Mass during summer in our un-air-conditioned church. Similar attire appears in our congregation usually among former and current military. One interesting exception is one of our schola, a genetic European, who married a towering African woman. This arch conservative (liturgically) parish (Mass of the Ages) has so far avoided race wars barring a minor dust up among the ARS over the use of orange in a table display about Ireland that was resolved without explosive ordnance.
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Nice try, but no ceegar.
I am not supporting your point - about anything. You complained about the way the EM was dressed, after making your very culturally, and, I would say, narrowly, conditioned remarks about suits and coats and ties.
From what I can see, the EM is appropriately dressed up for his culture and climate.
I would suggest you recognize that, in terms of what constitutes "dressing up," Western cultural norms aren't the be-all and end-all of fashion.
Fr K,
You, like PF, is heavily invested in liturgical failure. Besides a priest who supports of the Party of Moloch is not credible
TJM - A person like you who supports sexual assault on married women is not credible. Being invested in Trumpism is a dead end. At some point you MIGHT come to recognize this, but I am not holding my breath.
Obviously everyone here misses the point of my brilliantly stated post. Lay clothing is fickle from parish to parish, country to country, culture to culture. To tell someone who has been called to a formal liturgical ministry to wear their Sunday best for it, could lead to flip flops, short shorts and a t-shirt with an obscene photo or slogan. I kid you not, at one of my coastal parishes I saw a t-shirt with the words “suck it” on the back! Sunday best, though, for that fellow.
The universal Church’s liturgical clothing is different. Please note the priest and the server, not the Communion Minister. They are vested for a liturgical action and the Communion Minister should be too. Don’t leave Sunday best up to the person to interpret it or you might get an approval from FRMJK!
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - No one missed your point.
What you consider "Sunday Best" isn't the norm for the world, for the United States, for Georgia or South Carolina, or anywhere outside your villa/retirement home.
The liturgical minister is the picture IS vested for liturgical action. He is wearing his Sunday Best which, to my eye, in entirely appropriate, respectful, modest, and worthy.
I have been to only one diocese - Harrisburg, PA - in which EM's wear albs. There may be others, but one might readily conclude that the bishops where such requirements are not imposed don't see things your way.
Bishop and others don’t see things my way—exactly and thus we have he incoherence and disconnects tolerated so much so that in some places here and elsewhere only 5% of Catholics actually attend Mass because it has become so mundane, boring, unispiriting and ugly. But let’s continue to encourage the old ways, meaning since 1970. Thanks for making my point.
Fr. AJM, you've lost me on this one.
First, while EMHC's might have contributed to the drop in mass attendance, sole responsibility does not reside with this ministry.
Second, being a ministerial role, it likely would profit from diocesan oversight, training and codification regarding execution. What I mean is that laity step out of the secular into the spiritual and perhaps present themselves as such to the laity in the pews consistently through the alb.
Last, graphic T's, revealing clothing and inappropriate footwear are engrained within secular society. Should the Church want people attired differently, based upon culture and climate, perhaps the Church should present its sacramental and liturgical life to foster an environment where the laity feels compelled to present themselves differently. This will be difficult to achieve several generations on from the coats and ties you mentioned however some improvement is likely necessary WITHOUT being exclusionary where means are not available for local coat/tie equivalents.
I believe this to be the points you are raising?
Liturgical sloppiness, casualness and ineptness has led to the decline in Mass attendance as it is seen a sloppy and unimportant. The dress of lay people in official liturgical roles such as lector and Communion minister can be a scandal in some cases. A woman in a short, but tasteful dress who ascends to the altar to read or distribute Holy Communion and decides to make a profound bow shows more than her piety! And what about parishes that affirm the chosen gender of its members despite science, DNA evidence not to mention biology? What kind of dress do we recommend?
The Eucharistic minister in the photo I use is dressed in a respectful way but not for his ministry. The altar boy next to him has a liturgical garment. Why would the altar boy be vested and not the Eucharistic Minister. Makes no sense.
I have witnessed "more than her piety". In the moment, it was amusing, but, macro, was it?
The Byzantine Ruthenians do not allow laity, aside from those serving, on the altar, that is, beyond the deacon's doors. Perhaps the Romans should do the same keeping those not performing a specific liturgical function world out of the sanctuary as well. Arguably, the secular cannot be intermixed with the sacred.
The mixing of the Sacred World and the Secular World is exactly what is needed, now more than ever.
Faith and belief and, most importantly, Divine grace do not remain behind the deacon's doors, within the altar rail, or beyond the curtain the the Jerusalem Temple. The Holy of Holies ought not be restricted to males nor to the ordained, but a reality approachable by all.
Groovy FRMJK just way too cool, after your pre-Vatican II formation at the Mount, you have finally caught up with my 1970’s Seminary trying at the Park. Sacred and secular liturgy! Wow man! Just wow and psychedelic! What a trip! This is a great ensemble singing Proud Mary as a Gathering song. It’s groovy too! Or is it too groovy? https://youtu.be/TTfYnRQgKgY
Fr. MJK,
Your suggestion is wholly inconsistent with Eastern praxis as well as our understanding of the theology of the Church temple.
That's, of course fine, you being Roman.
THAT, however, is in part why there have been several schisms between East and West and why I so dislike this "two lungs" blather that Romans waste their time ruminating over as in the East, its simply not consistent with our approach for the reasons I mentioned. The prevalence of attitudes such as that which you mentioned is precisely why there will never be unity between East and West save that which exists in the Eastern Churches the Byzantine ones being mostly self-governing thanks be to God.
Additionally, Fr. MJK, I would suggest that you are approaching your argument from a western perspective characterized by pluralistic societies.
In many places within the East, the sacred and secular are symbiotic thus negating the need to combat one with the other in as aggressive a way. Religion and culture flow naturally and organically from one to the other such that the two are always within reach and always compatible.
Despite this relationship, those exercising the major orders have distinct roles and places where they occur that are not and cannot be equally accessible to those not ordained to those orders and acting as designated representatives of the bishop. In the East, the parish and church building are liturgically the bishop's, not the priest's despite his letter of appointment. Priests do not enjoy the apostolic fullness of bishops.
Byz - Oh, there will be unity between the East and West. Why? Because it is the will of Christ.
Yes, I am, unabashedly, approaching the, "argument from a western perspective as characterized by pluralistic societies." No surprise there. However, the Western perspective is not monolithic as you seem to assume. Nor is the Easter, I would suggest. There are elements of both that are needed by the Church.
Hence, the need for both lungs.
Fr. AJM,
You are correct, that is the will of Christ. Will this happen within our respective lifetimes, or generations long after we're gone, I'm not hopeful.
Please note, I do not assume the Western perspective to be monolithic. Neither is the Eastern perspective. Perhaps things are different down south, however, in the Northeast, I'm able to go about my business and life interacting with those mostly like myself (Catholic, more Roman than not and Orthodox). My Dr.'s, accountant, colleagues, funeral director, you name it. We're just here in numbers that are sufficiently large to make that possible. Certainly there are others, the Jewish population is significant and I absolutely love their food and delis, however, my day-to-day interactions there are limited unless I purposely seek them out if that makes sense.
In the East, religion and culture are inextricably intertwined. You can't have one without encountering the other, particularly on the culture side. As a result, to me a happy one, our faith accompanies us with much that we do. While Roman Catholic culture is strong and defined, I never found it to be the ever present accompaniment like that in the East. Perhaps I'm wrong, and unless one is immersed in Eastern spirituality and culture, you might not readily agree.
Byz - I do agree that in many places, faith and the secular life are, for a variety of reasons, more intertwined than in Western cultures. Some of those reasons may be laudable. Some are decidedly not.
Dear Fr K,
Similar to Mark Thomas you often fail to be specific; especially when being specific is really required.
Also, I hope (but seriously doubt) your knowledge of the politics, religion and culture of non western nations and non western cultures is greater than your (almost) zero knowledge on the late 19th, early 20th famous - or infamous - Catholic priests and scholars who most laid down the intellectual foundations of Catholic Modernism.
Paul - I'll be specific. You are, I have no doubt, a most unpleasant person, giving vent to your frustration and anger - one can only imagine the origins - in nasty and vicious attacks. Your remarks about my seminary history teachers and your "Ginge and Cringe" comment about the Duke and Duchess of Sussex are specifically the reasons for my low estimation of your character. In general, the nastiness of your comments to and about other posters here only confirms my judgment.
Your purpose for commenting here is to demean others in a vain attermpt to make yourself something you are not.
Now, you will have to have the last word(s), owing to your insecurity and, who knows, "fine red wine." So, have at it.
Cheers! Oh, and "Regards."
Darling Fr K!
Dear, dear…dearest me.
You are really the pot calling the kettle black LOL - ever consider or considered how often your TONE here shouts out frustration and anger….over what only your diocesan paid for therapist could fathom…
My origins (as well as my pleasantness to all children; almost all women; is well known…but usually only to men who are worthy of it, like almost everyone here….bar you - and please note you silly creature - how the most even Mark T gets from me is mostly gentle mockery) phew …what a digression! ) my origins are very well known to my very nearest and dearest and they have loved me for years - how about your sad self…?
I am sorry to hear of a sort of affection and or attachment you may weirdly have for the Woke Legend Duo Harry and Megan….
But I’ll be honest - “Ginge and Cringe” was a rare plagiarism from John Nolan from years ago….and not a plagiarism really as I have heard it dozens of times in London and Cambridge pubs….
Also: unlike yourself, I do not overestimate myself - but I had the intellect, sobriety and sanity and common sense perceptions etc AND especially a good memory and so on - to make it in the real world after 3 years of Seminary…..for a fairly successful career in journalism in 3 continents; with perhaps a little intelligence work done along the way for almost 30 years….
You claim to have a love of English/ British humour like Yes Minuster etc….but Fr K in almost all UK pubs I’ve drank in you’d be as welcome as……….(have a guess…..)
Okay?
Kind regards,
Paul.
PS my family are grateful to you Fr K this time your bizarre level of uncalled for personal insults directed against me did not this time include my two daughters - aged 29 and 17, nor my wife….thx for that mercy, Father M J Kavanaugh …..you are a credit to your Seminary and Diocese ( in your own mind at least…..ay?)
Fr K,
A big thank you from my whole extended Clan both Down Under Oz and Canada (and a few in Florida) for not including my wife and young daughters in your irrational insulting almost again unhinged personal verbal spray at yours truly...
Keep it up Fr K..showing your real colours in either anger, frustration, jealous and or intoxication...
To those who know me well off the online world - I'm
always pleasant to children,
Almost always pleasant to woman - but usually with men I only bother to be pleasant with men I respect...which is almost everyone on this blog except you...
Please note, Fr K, how almost always with even the annoying Marky T I almost never sink lower than mild gentle mockery...
Ginge and Cringe...are you serious! Quite common to hear that in many pubs from London to Cambridge to Glasgow...
Please seek some help, for your own sake ..
Fr Allan,
I think it only fair you post/publish my last comments - ie in response to Fr K having a fragile ego and yet again coming out with bizarre personal insults towards yours truly..
P.
Fr. ALLAN McDonald-
I think it only fair that you re-post/publish the "bizarre personal insults" that Paul has made against yours truly and others.
Regards, M.
Perhaps the pope is reading FRMJK and Paul’s comments, as my blog is wildly popular worldwide, and had you two in mind for this document released on Memorial Day:
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/05/29/0404/00890.html#en
Paul, You flatter yourself in thinking that your not respecting me is of any concern to me. Let me assure you, and deflate your self-flattery bubble, it is of no concern.
So, you go on with your bizarre personal insults. You'll find among 3 or 4 here what you undoubtedly crave, someone to slap you on the back and tell you what a clever boy you are.
It seems you made a very wise choice to leave the seminary. I applaud your intellect, sobriety, sanity, and common sense in that decision.
Thx Father Michael "I must have the last word" Kavanaughesque ESQ...
PS it is a tragedy for the American Church you were never razed to the deepest Purple..in a major archdiocese. ..East coast or West...!
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