Saturday, September 19, 2020


Remember this? Well, forget it!


Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Hurry up and register as I have know idea how I then approved your registration or if it even works.

ByzRus said...

Fr. AJM,

Should you decide to try registration again, I found the following regarding Blogger and choosing who can comment.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I only have three choices which excludes the open ID. That’s the problem.

Pierre said...

Lizzie ((We know who you are), try this on for size:

Since the Church had declared prior that the death penalty was acceptable, it would be very hard to harmonize a declaration today that it was intrinsically evil with those prior declarations. Card. Ladaria is an intelligent man who is aware of this and would have mentioned it in the accompanying letter if that was the case. He made no mention of it.

On top of that, we have the hermeneutic of continuity. If something is going to change in the Church, it behooves the one changing it to declare that. Ladaria instead wrote in the letter how this did not contract previous statements.

Lizzie said...

Pete - The error was yours.

You claimed the death penalty was not evil. Since it deprives a person of a good - life - it is, by definition, evil.

You then decide to talk about prior declarations, harmonizing, Cardinal Ladaria, hermeneutics, etc.

ALL of this in order to deflect from the basic error you made. You're the one who needs remedial Catholic philosophy and theology.

Start with understanding the difference between premoral and moral evil.

rcg said...

Fr gave the death penalty to the new registration. He must think Vatican II is legit!

Victor said...

You may need to control those posting under different names. Registration is not a problem except for the Google thing. Things like Discus seems to be content neutral.

Your blog site has been problematic for me since I first started with it. I still have to go through the reCaptcha images usually 5+ times so I do not comment often. The problem is that your site is closely intertwined with Google services which runs reCaptcha and tries to get as much information on everyone as it can. A lot of Web browsers including Firefox and especially Pale Moon, which I use, limit that. Google tries to push Chrome on everyone because it owns it, and if you use it regularly, Google knows more about yourself than you yourself do. And I have issues with Google as a company.

I find Google search too politicised in favour of California style liberalism, and therefore somewhat anti-Catholic the way it organises its searches by lowering the rank of more traditional conservative information. In our conformist society, Google knows how to change minds to make any resistance to conform to its liberal worldview:

Could you use the hosing that Fr. Z uses?

Anonymous said...

Romulus Augustus here, just reading at Breitbart that 77% of Democrat and Democrat leaning voters support abortion in most cases I'm not shocked but just disgusted with the Church leaders because if you don't preach the evil of abortion how can you expect the flock to think it is evil?. Again the Evangelicals preach the evil of abortion and their ranks continue to grow just like they do in "Roman Catholic" Central America and South America with Evangelicals growing by leaps and bounds, when Bishops don't teach the Roman Catholic Faith well the Evangelicals will and there you go millions of Catholics leaving the True Faith.

Rose said...


Pierre said...

Lizzie K,

The Church has declared that the death penalty is not intrinsically evil, but abortion is. Grow up

Lizzie said...

Pete - You don't know, as you have shown, what "intrinsically evil" means.

You are, therefore, in no position to hold forth as if you know what the death penalty is or what the Church teaches in its regard.

Pierre said...

Lizzie K,

Cite chapter and verse why I am wrong. I am mystified why any “catholic” cleric would support a party whose modern raison d’etre is based on killing of the innocents in the womb.

Lizzie said...

You are wrong because you have failed and continue to fail to distinguish between premoral and moral evil.

It is a BASIC distinction learned in BASIC Catholic philosophy and BASIC moral theology classes.

"Premoral evil refers to the depravation of some good that is due a person or a thing; premoral evils are really bad, but they are not as such immoral. Sickness and death are premoral evils. They are obviously bad, but not as such immoral."

From "Making Good Moral Choices" authored by Lawler, Boyle, and May.

"As used mostly in Catholic moral theology, and influenced by Thomas Aquinas, ontic evil refers to the lack of perfection that exists in the created order and in human social structures by virtue of the reality of sin that permeates everything. Ontic evil, including natural disasters, accidental harm or damage, or even the potential negative effects of all human actions, including those whose intent was good, reflects the moral ambiguity of the universe, where notwithstanding humanity’s best intentions, suffering does happen and is endemic to the human condition. Contrary to moral evil, however, the evil or suffering that is caused is not directly intended, even if a proportionate reason i.e., the intent of a greater good) makes us tolerate it. For example, the effects of a surgery always include pain and discomfort, but that negative effect or ontic evil is to be preferred to the greater harm of disease or even death."

From: Delicata N. (2013) Ontic Evil(or Physical, Nonmoral, or Premoral Evil). In: Runehov A.L.C., Oviedo L. (eds) Encyclopedia of Sciences and Religions. Springer, Dordrecht.

Pierre said...

Lizzie K,

LOL! These are not official pronouncements from the Holy See. You failed bigly! This is more puerile than Mark Thomas!

John Nolan said...

There is an article by Avery, Cardinal Dulles, entitled 'Catholicism and Capital Punishment', published in 'First Things' 112 (April 2001) and available online at the Catholic Education Resource Center. It is lucid and dispassionate and while learned, is aimed at the general reader. I thoroughly recommend it.

When I was 14 I was the proposer in a school debate that 'this house favours the retention of capital punishment'. I can't remember whether or not the motion was carried, but Parliament decreed otherwise; the death penalty for murder was suspended in 1965 and abolished in 1969.

Nowadays I would oppose it, not because it is a moral absolute (it clearly is not), but for prudential and practical reasons. Even back then I would have regarded the American practice of incarcerating an individual for twenty or thirty years and then putting him to death as deeply repugnant.

Lizzie said...

TJM - The Holy See has never pronounced on the error you made and continue to make.

I would note that you did not ask for such pronouncements: "Cite chapter and verse why I am wrong." is what you said. I cited chapter and verse from people who know the difference between premoral and moral evil.

That is the distinction you refuse to learn.

You are adamant in your desire to remain ignorant in order to disguise your ineptitude.

Pierre said...

Lizzie K,

The Vatican has never pronounced your sources or odd version of theology as authoritative. Look in the mirror if you want to see ignorant and contumacious. You are alibiing for the Party of Intrinsic Evil. Epic fail.

John Nolan said...

Oh Dear. Another troll handle, this time 'Lizzie'. And yet another descent into the cesspit of American party politics.

This could be an intelligent blog with reasonable debate. At one time I believed it was, which is why I have contributed to it. In future I shall confine my comments to Fr Hunwicke's blog and another called 'Second Sight' which is hosted by a liberal Catholic columnist but welcomes intelligent comments from all viewpoints and is not overly trolled.

Rest assured that any comments will be under my real name.

Pierre said...

John Nolan,

You will be missed.

Lizzie said...

"The Vatican has never pronounced your sources or odd version of theology as authoritative."

The Vatican isn't in the habit of pronouncing on matters that are not doctrinal. Looking for such is a sign of your foolishness.

That you consider traditional Catholic moral theology "odd" is very telling.

The first citation I made was to a book written by VERY conservative Catholic moral theologians. Nothing odd aboiut them at all, but, in your ignorance, you spouted that out.

"William E. May (May 27, 1928 – December 13, 2014) was an American theologian who was the Michael J. McGivney Emeritus Professor of Moral Theology at the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC where he taught from 1991 to 2008."

Rev Ronald Lawler, OFMCap "A noted professor, writer, catechist and lecturer, he received his doctorate in philosophy in 1958 from St. Louis University and spent most of his life as a teacher to the teachers. During his 52 years of ministry, he was at St. Fidelis College, Herman, 1960-1969; Josephinum College, Worthington, Ohio, 1975-1977; Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C., 1977-1980; St. Thomas University, Houston, Texas, 1980-1982; St. John University, New York, N.Y., 1982-1988; and Holy Apostles College and Seminary, Cromwell, Conn., 1988-1990. Since 1990, he has served as catechetical consultant for the Diocese of Pittsburgh."

Joseph Bolye, Jr. "Nuclear Deterrence, Morality, and Realism, with John Finnis and Germain Grisez (Oxford: Oxford University, 1987).

Catholic Sexual Ethics: A Summary, Defense, and Explanation, with Ronald Lawler, O.F.M.Cap., and William E. May (Huntington, Ind.: Our Sunday Visitor, 1984; updated 1996; 2nd ed. 1998).

Life and Death with Liberty and Justice: A Contribution to the Euthanasia Debate, with Germain Grisez (Notre Dame; University of Notre Dame, 1979). Selections reprinted in Right Conduct: Theories and Applications, ed. Michael D. Bayles and Kenneth Hanley (New York: Random House, 1983), 156–63.

Free Choice: A Self-Referential Argument, with Germain Grisez and Olaf Tollefsen (Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame, 1976).

And John Nolan, enjoy your erudite self. Sorry you couldn't find a comfortable spot here among the philistines. (Sniff Sniff) Cheers!

Anonymous said...


Are you trying to emulate Mark Thomas with your list of non sequiturs?


Anonymous said...

Hey Lizzie,

Finally, Archbishop Cordileone is calling out YOUR political party which I am sure kept the Abortion Clinics opened!

"Cordileone condemned city leaders for allowing retail to operate indoors before houses of worship.

"The City continues to place unrealistic and suffocating restrictions on our natural and constitutional right to worship. This willful discrimination is affecting us all," Cordileone said in his remarks posted by the church online. "Yes, discrimination, because there is no other word for it. We ask: why can people shop at Nordstrom’s at 25% capacity but only one of you at a time is allowed to pray inside of this great Cathedral, your Cathedral? Is this equality?"