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Monday, March 30, 2020

ITALIANS HAVE PENCHANT OF GETTING REALLY WORK UP, YELLING DURING ARGUMENTS, SLAMING POTS AND PANS AS WELL AS DOORS AND THEN THEY GET OVER IT

THESE ITALIAN THEOLOGIANS WILL GET OVER IT. PRAY FOR THEM, THEY’VE GONE CORONAVIRUS CRAZY BEING QUARANTINED SO LONG AND WITH SO MANY OTHER PRESSING ISSUES IN ITALY LIKE EMPTY ORDINARY FORM PARISHES IN OR OUTSIDE OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC.

BUT FIRST, AND THIS IS COMEDY GOLD, FATHER ANTHONY RUFF, OSB, A GERMAN, HAS ANOTHER HITLER MOMENT TO HIS BLOG POST ON THIS TRULY SILLY TYPICAL ITALIAN OUTBURST. HE GETS ONE COMMENT THAT POINTS OUT THE OBVIOUS AND LIKE A CHILD HE SHUTS DOWN FURTHER COMMENTS. POOR FR. ANTHONY, HIS IDOL, VATICAN II, AND FOOLISH FANTASY THAT THE ANCIENT LATIN MASS WAS OUTLAWED FOREVER, IS BEING HIT WITH THE VIRUS OF TRUTH, THAT GOD ALONE IS GOD, NOT VATICAN II, AND THE ANCIENT LATIN MASS IS UNDERGOING A RESURRECTION RESURGENCE! AND THE VATICAN, UNDER POPE FRANCIS, IS AIDING AND ABETTING IT:

????????

Theologians Call Upon Vatican to Revoke Recent Decrees on 1962 Missal (2 comments before comments shut down)




It really is astonishing the degree to which the use of the so-called extraordinary form of the Roman Rite drives some people absolutely bonkers. On the one hand we are told with calm assurance that this is a tiny, indeed insignificant issue…on the other, we are treated to expressions of dire outrage about things like the relatively minor issue of Rome doing exactly what Rome predicted would be done in 2011. 
Come on now, Andrea. Are seven prefaces and some optional feast days really worth all this anxiety?

  1. I think there’s a more accurate interpretation of what’s going on. I take it that the issue isn’t just prefaces and saints’ days. It is about whether the Second Vatican Council did away with the old rite or not. That’s a burning question, and opinions differ on it. And no – we’re not going to debate that any further at Pray Tell!
    awr
    COMMENTS CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!

Open letter on the “state of liturgical exception” (english version)


letteraperta
Open letter on the “state of liturgical exception”
To all theologians,
scholars, and
students of theology
The great liturgical tradition, which has always accompanied and supported the Church in her history of grace and sin, hears the groaning of individuals and nations in this pandemic crisis, which brings suffering and affliction to those who are sick, and fear, isolation and loneliness to everyone else.  The ordinary rhythm of the Lenten and Paschal journey is altered and subverted, in solidarity with our common suffering. We would never have thought, however, that a small but not marginal suffering would also come at the same time throughthe exercise of ecclesial authority and through the decrees Quo magis e Cum sanctissima, which the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on 25 March 2020.
It is no surprise that This Congregation should devote its attention to the liturgy. But special and singular is the fact that it modifies the ordinesintroduces prefaces and formularies for feasts, and modifies calendars and criteria of precedence. And it does this on a 1962 missal. How is this possible? The Congregation, as is known, in this case moves in the space of an exceptional authority, which dates back 13 years, in accordance with motu proprio Summorum pontificum. But since time is greater than space, what is possible on the regulatory level is not always appropriate. Therefore, it is crucial to engage in critical reflection on the logic of this development.
Time, in fact, has unveiled to us the paradox of a competence on the liturgy being taken away from the Bishops and the Congregation of Worship: this was arranged, in Summorum pontificumwith an intention of solemn pacification and generous reconciliation, but soon it changed into a serious division, a widespread conflict, and became the symbol of a “liturgical rejection” of the Second Vatican Council. The greatest distortion of the initial intentions of the motu proprio can be seen today in those diocesan seminaries where it is expected that the future ministers will be trained at the same time in two different rites: the conciliar rite and the one that denies it. All this reached its most surreal point the day before yesterday, when the two Decrees were released. They mark the culmination of a distortion which is no longer tolerable, and which can be summed up as follows:
- the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith acts as a substitute in exercising competences conferred by the Second Vatican Council on Bishops and the Congregation for Divine Worship;
- it undertakes to elaborate “liturgical variants” of the ordines without having the historical, textual, philological and pastoral competences;
- it seems to ignore, precisely on the dogmatic level, a grave conflict between the lex orandi and the lex credendi, since it is inevitable that a dual, conflictual ritual form will lead to a significant division in the faith;
- it seems to underestimate the disruptive effect this “exception” will have on the ecclesial level, by immunizing a part of the community from the “school of prayer” that the Second Vatican Council and the liturgical reform have providentially given to the common ecclesial journey.
A “state of exception” is also happening today on the civil level, in its harsh necessity, and this fact allows us greater ecclesial foresight. To return to an ecclesial normality, we must overcome the state of liturgical exception established 13 years ago in another world, with other conditions and with other hopes, by Summorum pontificum. It no longer makes sense to deprive diocesan bishops of their liturgical powers; neither does it make sense to have an Ecclesia Dei Commission (which has in fact already been suppressed), or a Section of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which take away authority from diocesan Bishops and the Congregation of Divine Worship; it no longer makes sense to enact decrees to “reform” a rite that is closed in the historical past, inert and crystallized, lifeless and without vigor. There can be no resuscitation for it. The double regime is over; the noble intention of SP has waned; the Lefebvrians have raised the barhigher and higher and then run away, insulting the Second Vatican Council and the present pope along with all three of his predecessors. Continuing to nourish a “state of liturgical exception” – one that was born to unite, but does nothing but divide – only leads to the shattering, privatization, and distortion of the worship of the Church. On the basis of these considerations, we resolve together to request that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith immediately withdraw the two decrees of 25/03/2020 and restore all powers concerning the liturgy to the diocesan Bishops and the Congregation for Divine Worship. Obviously, we ask this without prejudice to the powers that this Congregation retains in doctrinal matters.
So let us leave the “state of liturgical exception”. If not now, when?
With best wishes to all colleagues and students, besieged but not conquered in life, during these bitter yet still generous times.
Andrea Grillo

8 comments:

rcg said...

I’m not so sure. Do ypu think there is any truth to the rumors that traditional Masses are being watched in greater numbers than modern Masses? Is there a flight back to the VO (it isn’t really extraordinary any longer, is it?) as an act of contrition by the people iNineva?

TJM said...

Ruff is a nutcase. I stopped looking at his totalitarian website long ago.

I see very little religious vitality in the Novus Ordo Church - although there are pockets where it is fairly healthy, generally where there are orthodox priests who are tradition friendly. The last time I was at my former territorial parish, run by a Dem operative masquerading as a Catholic priest, Mass attendance is way down, even though there is a parish school, yet very few children attend Sunday Mass. I suspect many of the parents send their children there, not for religious instruction (such as it is), but to keep their dears away from the hoi polloi in the public schools.

When I attend Mass at a parish with an EF or OF in Latin, there are far more younger people there, the priest tends to be young, so I am feeling this is where the future is. Vatican Disaster II took a huge gamble and lost. There is no second Spring. In every meaningful metric, the Church is in terrible shape.

Bob said...

I have found personally the site "moderators" also see themselves as comment censors, and that they sanitize arguments against them of that which they cannot successfully argue.

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

The Empire strikes back....

"...we must overcome the state of liturgical exception established 13 years ago in another world,..."

Another "world"? So for the modernists, anything that happened, even last week, which they don't like, is now outdated and even "otherworldly"?

What is the problem for them? They keep saying the people who want this are old and rigid and mental...and are just a tiny faction of the real world, and will soon die off. Why be excited about that?

We know what the problem is. Now they can SEE it. They see the Masses celebrated in the Traditional form online, and understand this is NOTHING like what they are pushing. And they know the TLM is growing, and when many people who really believe in the Roman Catholic faith participate in the old rite compared to the new rite, they prefer the old.

In the early Church, there were those who went to the desert and practiced the Faith as solitaries. And some of them became great saints, and started religious orders which flourished and supported the Church spiritually. In those times no one thought all people should respond to God's call in this way. Why not view the TLM segment as such ones...as not what most Catholics do, but as some segment wish to do? Course, reading the lives of the saints, it seems anyone who exhibits a heightened devotion to God is often looked at by rank and file Church leaders with a raised eyebrow. So maybe it just comes with the territory.

God bless.
Bee

Victor said...

Ruff: "It is about whether the Second Vatican Council did away with the old rite or not. That’s a burning question, and opinions differ on it."

Thaty is worng. The commission of 9 cardinals set up by St. J-PII in 1986 concluded that the old rite was never abrogated by St Paul VBI or the Vatican Council II. Pope Benedict XVI issued his official decree in 2007 on this matter:

“It is therefore permitted to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal, which was promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated, as an extraordinary form of the Church’s Liturgy.”

This is a definitive pronouncement of the pope.

If Ruff refuses to accept this, then he is disobedient to the pope on a matter of important teaching and, therefore, is a schismatic, as are Grillo and the co-signers of his letter and should be ignored, and efforts should be made to make sure they are not allowed to teach at any Catholic institution.

John Nolan said...

There is no debate over whether or not Vatican II 'did away with' the old rite. Had it done so, it would no longer be scheduled and celebrated, not only by societies of Pontifical Right and monasteries who use it exclusively, but also in parishes which use both rites; and by archbishops, bishops and cardinals in many countries.

The Church does not 'do away' with established rites which are orthodox and legitimate. Even before Trent Cardinal Ximenez was working to preserve the ancient Mozarabic rite. Bugnini recognized that his and Paul VI's new Mass would need at least twenty years to gain acceptance, which is why he wanted a juridical abjuration of the older rite. He was told in no uncertain terms that such a thing would be 'obnoxious' to liturgical tradition.

The Catholic Church has always tolerated different rites, officially at least.

The coexistence of different rites in the Catholic Church is a historical reality. T

Fr Martin Fox said...

It is the ten exclamation points at the end of Father Anthony's dictum that make it so delectible.

Mark Thomas said...

CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963

4. "Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way."

Pax.

Mark Thomas