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Monday, June 20, 2022

HERE YOU HAVE IT; THE PROBLEM WITH THE MODERN, PROGRESSIVE MENTALITY ABOUT THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS AND THUS THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST


 This is a comment by Paul Inwood at a Praytell post:

I believe we need to understand that the liturgy will not and cannot stand still, but must always be changing, developing, adapting itself to the different peoples and eras who use it to come closer to God.

Some sixty years after Vatican II in the USA we have about 90% of Catholics who do not attend Mass.

And of the ones who do attend Mass, they do not believe in the Real Presence as the Church teaches. Rather they see it as a comforting symbol. While an atheist would not be comforted by that symbol, they too would, nonetheless, believe it is a symbol because it is, like the flag is a symbol of the USA. The most ardent enemy of the USA believes that too, that’s why they burn it. 

How can we get back to liturgical sanity that Pope Benedict pursued?

16 comments:

mark said...

Father McDonald said..."How can we get back to liturgical sanity that Pope Benedict pursued?"

Liturgical sanity exists within my diocese.

There are five parishes within 10 to 15 minutes of me. Throughout Pope Francis' reign, in regard to Liturgy, each parish has improved greatly (at least to me). Latin and Gregorian Chant have returned here. A few months ago, a younger priest installed a Novus Ordo Latin Mass.

Speaking liturgically, Pope Francis has been a blessing to my diocese.

Pax.

Mark Thomas


In regard to Sacrosanctum Concilium, from the misleading film/documentary, Mass of the Ages, which presented Peter Kwasniewski as a rational, respectable "traditionalist" :

Peter Kwasniewski:

“Although it did have some striking language in it, it mostly comes across as a conservative document, or at least a document that would reassure people. We’re not talking about a radical overhaul of the Catholic Church’s worship. We’re talking about adding a little bit of vernacular here and there. We’re talking about modifying the calendar a little bit.”

Now, the real Peter Kwasniewski, June 21, 2021 A.D., Crisis Magazine:

-- Sacrosanctum Concilium: The Ultimate Trojan Horse

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2021/sacrosanctum-concilium-the-ultimate-trojan-horse

"The conclusion: Sacrosanctum Concilium is not only not a safe document, it was the greatest Trojan Horse ever introduced into the Church. I know that it’s painful for many good Catholics to admit that it is a corrupt and corrosive document, but we must judge the tree by its fruits."

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Mark, what percentage of Catholics in your area attend Sunday Mass and of that, what percentage believes in the real Presence taught by the Church?

Michael A said...

Mark,

Did you ask the priests that have made these changes if they did them because they were inspired by reverential examples and demands of Pope Francis? Maybe the priest who started a Latin Novus Mass did it because he found it to be an effective way to circumvent Francis and his disgusting motu proprio, not because Francis was the positive impetus? If you truly believe that Francis is the guy who has inspired Gregorian chant and Latin in your diocese then I have some stuff to sell you.

mark said...

Father McDonald, thank you for your question(s).

Father McDonald, I have heard diocesan officials place Sunday Mass attendance here at 15 to 17 percent.

I do not know as whether my diocese has (via a survey(s) ) established the percentage of the Faithful here who believe in the Real Presence.

In regard to each brother and sister (in the Faith) known to me: Each believes in the Real Presence.

Father McDonald, the priests at the five parishes near me are akin to you. That is, in line with you, they are holy men who have inspired their parishioners to love, and serve, the Lord.

Our parishes are filled with folks who love God, His True Church, our priests, religious, bishop, and Pope Francis...as well as each other.

Our parishes are packed with people who wish to be there...they want to be at Mass...they strive to live holy lives.

Mixed with them are sinners such as I.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Bill Meyer said...

Many of these same people who believe in an ever changing mass also insist that the US Constitution is a "living document."
The last century of public education -- and even Catholic education -- has allowed or created, immense ignorance of fundamental realities. A huge percentage of the population under 5o believes that right and wrong are abstractions, or "social constructs." They fail to recognize that abortion is murder, and that making murder acceptable or criminal based on the age of the victim is utter madness.

Our country is increasingly Godless, and we will not escape the consequences.

mark said...

Michael A said..."Mark, Did you ask the priests that have made these changes if they did them because they were inspired by reverential examples and demands of Pope Francis? Maybe the priest who started a Latin Novus Mass did it because he found it to be an effective way to circumvent Francis and his disgusting motu proprio, not because Francis was the positive impetus? If you truly believe that Francis is the guy who has inspired Gregorian chant and Latin in your diocese then I have some stuff to sell you."

I know the younger priest who initiated the Latin Novus Ordo Mass at the parish near me.

He had grown up in my parish. He loves and respects Pope Francis. In line with our holy bishop, Father has defended, and promoted to the hilt, His Holiness, Pope Francis.

Our diocese has responded well to Pope Francis' call for liturgy that is sober and reverent.

At Mass, throughout Pope Francis' reign, I have witnessed more and more Faithful who have kneeled to receive Holy Communion on the tongue...

...more and more ladies who have worn head coverings...

...more and more people who, just after having received Holy Communion, pause in front of sacred statues to pray...or light votive candles...then return to their pews.

As Pope Francis' reign as progressed, the Masses at my parish, as well as four nearby parishes, have grown in regard to sobriety and reverence.

Our bishop, and priests, have responded well to Pope Francis' endless call to promote Confession.

Our seminary has produced many priests.

Our priests have spoken well of Pope Francis...have conducted wonderful classes/sessions that explained, as well as promoted, Pope Francis' Encyclicals and Exhortations.

Tremendous love and respect exists here for Pope Francis...as well as Popes Emeritus Benedict XVI, Saint John Paul II...and so forth.

Michael A, thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

mark said...

Michael A said..."Mark, If you truly believe that Francis is the guy who has inspired Gregorian chant and Latin in your diocese then I have some stuff to sell you."

Pope Francis has done that.

Example: September 28, 2019 A.D:

https://www.chantcafe.com/2019/09/pope-francis-take-gregorian-chant-as-the-first-model-of-sacred-music/

-- Pope Francis: take Gregorian chant “as the first model” of sacred music

Address of the Holy Father Francis to the Scholae Cantorum of the Italian Saint Cecilia Association

"Dear brothers and sisters,

"Together you can devote yourselves better to song as an integral part of the Liturgy, with Gregorian chant inspiring you as the first model.

"Take care together for artistic and liturgical preparation, and promote the presence of the schola cantorum in every parish community."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Bill Meyer said...

"At Mass, throughout Pope Francis' reign, I have witnessed more and more Faithful who have kneeled to receive Holy Communion on the tongue...

...more and more ladies who have worn head coverings...

...more and more people who, just after having received Holy Communion, pause in front of sacred statues to pray...or light votive candles...then return to their pews."

Mark, have you considered that these effects may be reactions against Pope Francis' comments on tradition and rigidness?

Bill

mark said...

Bill Meyer said..."Mark, have you considered that these effects may be reactions against Pope Francis' comments on tradition and rigidness?"

At the parishes in question, one person after another is with, not against, Pope Francis.

In line with our bishop, our priests have responded well to Pope Francis' exhortations to imbue Holy Mass with sobriety, and reverence.

Pope Francis offers Holy Mass in Latin, with Gregorian Chant, routinely. That was the case certainly during his Apostolic Visit to the United States.

Women have worn head coverings during Masses that he has offered...as well as during Audiences with him.

Pope Francis supports the FSSP. He is aware that the FSSP promotes "traditional" Catholicism.

Pope Francis has offered Holy Mass ad orientem.

All of the above is in line with, not a reaction against, Pope Francis.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Michael A said...

Mark,

Are the priests instructing the faithful about climate change, social justice and blessing homosexual marriages? Have any of the priests had a ecumenical service for worshiping Pachamamma or have they placed any hammer and sickle crucifixes in their churches? Have they been instructing their parishioners that if they are in unusual relationships that they should no longer abstain from Holy Communion? After all this really would be more in line with the spirit of Pope Francis' true beliefs, don't you think?

Strange how they have embraced your imagination of who Pope Francis is rather than the man who names his motu proprios like a Soviet disinformation expert.

You know one priest who accepts Francis as the pope as nearly all Catholics do, but that doesn't answer the question that I asked about how many priests attribute their conservative liturgical practices to the desires expressed by Francis.


Michael A said...

Mark
Within the last couple of weeks, I recall seeing an email from the FSSP that stated that things have been stressful for them and that they were thankful that they rec'd some clarification about how Francis' edict would be enforced on them. Their website basically says that they need to adhere to Traditionis Custodes, as stated to them directly by Francis and it appears that where they say Mass will now be restricted. But you say that the Pope "supports" the FSSP. I feel sorry for any others for whom Francis announces support.

mark said...

Michael Asaid..."You know one priest who accepts Francis as the pope as nearly all Catholics do, but that doesn't answer the question that I asked about how many priests attribute their conservative liturgical practices to the desires expressed by Francis."

"Conservative" liturgical practices?

The priests in question have responded to Pope Francis' exhortations that have promoted liturgical sobriety and reverence. That makes said priests "Catholic"...rather than liberals or conservatives.

The priests in question conduct the Holy Communion Rite with the sobriety, and reverence, that Pope Francis has promoted.

At a Mass at my parish, as well as nearby parishes...

In sober, and reverent fashion, one communicant receives Holy Communion in the hand.

In sober, and reverent fashion, the following communicant, while standing, may receive Holy Communion on the tongue.

The next communicant may, as he, or she, kneels, receive Holy Communion on the tongue.

All of the above, in line with Pope Francis' liturgical-related exhortations, is accomplished with sobriety and reverence.

The priests in question conduct themselves in line with our bishop, as well as Pope Francis.

Therefore, said priests are Catholic...Catholic...rather than "liberal," or "conservative" priests.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Catechist Kev said...

I offer the following video for this thread.

http://marklambert.blogspot.com/2022/06/pope-francis-vatican-ii-has-he-read.html

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Pope Francis’ talking points are the 1970’s talking points, especially the one about how long it takes to implement a council, those who don’t like the council being rigid and/or mentally ill. And yes, what was spoken of and promoted was not in the Council but a radical ideological and liberal reinterpretation of it. This pope in stuck in that period of time. I lived through it in the seminary and thus this is a first hand recounting of it.

Bill Meyer said...

Yes, Father, the talking points are from old history. And the claims made in the motu proprio about the divisiveness of those of us who prefer the EF has, in my experience, no foundation in reality. I do not reject the Council, which after all called for the continuation of the Latin mass, Gregorian chant, polyphony and organ. I pray for Pope Francis, as for all our priests and bishops.

But Traditionis Custodes is harsh, merciless, and uncharitable.

TJM said...

It is a waste of time to try and reason with Mark Thomas. Pope Francis, the nastiest man to occupy the Chair of Peter in my lifetime ( I go back to Pius XII) has been a disaster for the Church. He is shrinking the Church, not expanding her. We were experiencing a bit of resurgence under Benedict XVI. I know 3 young priests, all in their early 30s and pastors, who became priests because of Benedict. All 3 were in tears when Traditionis Custodes was promulgated. They have a very low opinion of this irascible old man, and would burst out laughter at MT’s comments. The good news they are being circumspect and will be around long after PF is forgotten.

And Mark Thomas please spare us from your cut and paste non sequiturs. Maybe you should go on hiatus so you can be full time in your Francis Fantasyland.