What Vigano did is on a parallel with what St. Thomas More did when the Church was being assultaed from without. Only now it’s from within. Thomas More lost his head but he is a Saint. It took incredible Faith and courage to speak to power.
The importance of publicly calling for the pope’s resignation is HUGE. My crystal ball tells me that Mr. Pentin mAy have already interviewed Pope Benedict who verified Archbishop Vigano’s account. Maybe, just maybe they are waiting for Francis to publicly call Vigano a liar before they release Benedict’s statement. Anyway that’s what I would do. If I know what monsters they are up against surely Benedict and Vigano and Pentin also know what they are fighting. Truth will out.
Marie Collins, "one of the eight Irish abuse survivors who met with Pope Francis Aug. 25," — she was a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors — has rejected the notion that homosexuality has played a major role in the priest sexual abuse scandal.
She dismissed "the myth that it is all down to homosexual priests." She added that the notion in question is “a red herring.”
“I certainly don’t agree with it. We have heterosexual predators and we have homosexual predators. When it comes to child abuse I don’t believe homosexuality can be put down as the cause — it may suit some people to think that and they would like to think that, but I don’t think any studies have shown that this is the case.”
Mt, if you read my previous post on pedophilia which is sexual abuse against prepubescent children, and a minuscule part of the scandal concerning priests, although one perp could have hundreds of victims; usually the male perp is heterosexual not homosexual even if victims are male children.
The greater problem in the Church is ephbophilia, the abuse of teenagers who have adult looks and genitalia. This can be heterosexual abuse, homosexual abuse or bisexual abuse. In the general population it is about equal although heterosexual abuse isn’t as off-putting as homosexual abuse in many minds.
However of the abuse of teenagers by priests, over 80% is homosexual abuse and 20% heterosexual or bisexual.
Marie Collins is speaking of pedophilia or intentionally conflating the two out of political correctness in Ireland! In other words she is dead wrong!
Father McDonald, I read your previous post in question. I don't claim that Marie Collins' declaration in question is valid. I just wish to note her view in regard to the situation in question.
She has great "credibility" supposedly...certain Catholics played-up the fact that she had resigned in frustration from the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors.
Certain Catholics employed her resignation to attack His Holiness Pope Francis. The notion was that while Marie Collins was "serious" about the sexual abuse scandal, Pope Francis, in turn, was not serious about said scandal.
My point is simply that the "credible" Marie Collins has rejected the notion that homosexuality has played a major role in the priest sexual abuse scandal.
What could Pope Benedict possibly do to the clear the air of the stench of this corrupt papacy, the likes of which the Church has not seen for 500 years, if then?
The "credible" Marie Collins...abuse victim, met Pope Francis on Saturday, August 25...former member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors.
Her comments in regard to the Pennsylvania Report:
"No one is shocked by it. When I say they're not shocked by it, they're not surprised by it because they've read it all before, in our own reports here in Ireland. It's not new to us; it's not something that we're surprised about."
She added that the report's contents are "horrific," but "it's nothing new."
The report's contents — allegations — are "horrific."
But it's vital to note:
1. The report contained allegations...allegations, against priests.
2. As Rome noted: "By finding almost no cases after 2002, the Grand Jury’s conclusions are consistent with previous studies showing that Catholic Church reforms in the United States drastically reduced the incidence of clergy child abuse."
Mark! How old are you and are you reading the news? The scandal this time isn’t about the new abuse but the gravity of the abuse back then. What is NEW this time around I’d how bishops covered it up and the homosexual cabal still present in the Church. Viganò hits the nail on the head in terms of what he writes in his 11 page report/testimony.
It seems like Mark Thomas is a person who desperately needs to believe that popes must be infallible and impeccable in all aspects of their life, or the claims of the Catholic Church are not credible. I really cannot find any other reason why he so desperately defends the indefensible when it comes to the Holy Father. Some call it Papalotry, and it is deadly to one's faith. You can remain in the Catholic Church and admit that popes can, and often do, make mistakes. Sometimes, those mistakes are not mistakes, but evil choices. It happens. Popes fathered children. Popes sold the office of St. Peter. Popes dug up their predecessors and put the corpse on trial. Popes covered up sex abuse. Popes spread heresies. And one pope even denied that he knew Jesus Christ. And yet, we're still here Mark. Infallibily is real, but very limited, and no one (save Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary) is impeccable. Let your mind be at peace and trust in Christ. If the Holy Father is innocent, that will come to light. If not, so be it.
In regard to today's "BREAKING NEWS" about His Holiness Pope Francis and the Nuncio...the McCarrick Scandal, Pennsylvania Report...
If anything, my faith in God and His Holy Catholic Church has strengthened.
Filth exists within every religion...every institution on earth. But Holy Mother Church is the one "institution" attacked, bashed, and trashed in greater fashion than any other institution on earth.
Satan works overtime to attack the Pope and Church.
-- Pope Francis is the Vicar of Christ. I love Pope Francis. I submit to his God-given authority over me.
-- Pope Francis has the right to his good name. I refuse to rush to judgment in regard to claims lodged against His Holiness.
-- God is in charge of His Church. Should a Pope, Cardinal, bishop, priest have sinned...should a Pope resign...so be it. My faith in God and His Holy Catholic Church would not be shaken — not in the least.
-- I don't have worries in regard to bad news about Catholicism. I have faith in God. I love Holy Mother Church. Despite my desire to remain close to God and His Church, I continue to sin. I don't pass judgment upon anybody.
I leave the governance of the Church to Pope Francis and the Cardinals/bishops in communion with His Holiness.
I commend you for your faith, and I agree with you, the pope is entitled to a good name, and the benefit of the doubt. I do not want to believe anything adverse about the Holy Father; I would hope every Catholic could say that.
And, I commend you for realizing that even if the pope has erred in his judgments and actions, this does not change the truth of the Catholic Faith.
Nevertheless, these are dark times. I cannot remember when someone of such prominence as Vigano would launch such an indictment, including the pope. It cannot be waved away. The matter must be investigated very thoroughly; the whole Church, and all who care about the Church, need this to happen.
And I daresay, if the pope and others around him resist such a thorough investigation, then please, let us have no more lectures from that quarter about "clericalism." Refusing to be accountable sounds like the height of clericalism to me!
So I hope the Holy Father will respond with some proposal for a credible way for this all to be aired out. The truth must come out, all of it.
I am not happy about any of this, I am very sad, as I hope all are. Yet if all this helps bring about the cleansing of the wounds, then that will be providential. Let us pray!
Thank you, Fr. Martin. I’ll say it again: Youre one of the good ones! TBTG for priests like you and FRAJM. So grateful for you, especially as we got NOTHING here locally today or last Sunday from priest or Bishop...
I think what Mark Thomas means by rushing to judgement is like when someone would accuse others of calumny and spreading gossip when they complain of abuse, or if someone said those who cover up abuse are "caca."
Father Allan J. McDonald said..."Mark! How old are you and are you reading the news? The scandal this time isn’t about the new abuse but the gravity of the abuse back then. What is NEW this time around I’d how bishops covered it up and the homosexual cabal still present in the Church. Viganò hits the nail on the head in terms of what he writes in his 11 page report/testimony."
Hello, Father McDonald. Father, I am a cradle Catholic who goes back to the Pontificate of Saint John XXIII.
Father, we have known for decades that bishops covered up sexual abuse that involved priests. How is that new?
Father, in regard to the "homosexual cabal still present in the Church": We have known for centuries that homosexuals have filled the ranks of the Church. Homosexuals will remain in place throughout the Church.
Anyway, Father McDonald, thank you for your holy service to God and His True Church.
Fr Martin Fox said..."Nevertheless, these are dark times. I cannot remember when someone of such prominence as Vigano would launch such an indictment..."
Father Fox, please know that I don't not mean the following in any sense that is nasty/condescending:
Father, I don't know as to your familiarity with the mind-boggling charges of faithlessness that Archbishop Lefebvre lodged repeatedly against Popes Blessed Paul VI and Saint John Paul II.
Archbishop Lefebvre was a prominent Conciliar Father.
I believe that, as least as fame (if you will) is concerned, during his time when he lodged horrific charges against the holy Popes in question, Archbishop Lefebvre was far more prominent than Carlo Maria Viganò is (or was until) today. ================================================================================
Father Fox, I believe that the following charges are far more serious than that which Archbishop Viganò said about Pope Francis:
Archbishop Lefebvre (with Bishop de Castro Mayer), 1986 A.D:
"Adopting the liberal religion of Protestantism and of the Revolution, the naturalistic principles of J.J. Rousseau, the atheistic liberties of the Declaration of the Rights of Man, the principle of human dignity no longer having any relation with truth and moral dignity, the Roman authorities turn their backs on their predecessors and break with the Catholic Church, and they put themselves at the service of the destroyers of Christianity and of the universal Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
"The present acts of John Paul II and the national episcopates illustrates, year by year, this radical change in the conception of the Faith, the Church, the priesthood, the world, and salvation by grace.
"The high point of this rupture with the previous Magisterium of the Church took place at Assisi, after the visit to the synagogue. The public sin against the one, true God, against the Incarnate Word, and His Church, makes us shudder with horror. John Paul II encourages the false religions to pray to their false gods — an immeasurable, unprecedented scandal."
You can't compare Archbishop Lefebvre to Archbishop Viganò. Archbishop Vigano is a loyal son of the Church. Archbishop Lefebvre placed himself outside of the Church. Or it seems to me from his perspective, the modern Church, which he had a problem with, displaced the One, True, Church to which he had allegiance. Or was it just Vatican II and the change in the liturgy with which he had issues? At any rate, he spurned any rapprochement with Rome. So what actually was his status vis-a-vis the Church of Rome? Maybe you can tell us.
19 comments:
What Vigano did is on a parallel with what St. Thomas More did when the Church was being assultaed from without. Only now it’s from within. Thomas More lost his head but he is a Saint. It took incredible Faith and courage to speak to power.
The importance of publicly calling for the pope’s resignation is HUGE. My crystal ball tells me that Mr. Pentin mAy have already interviewed Pope Benedict who verified Archbishop Vigano’s account. Maybe, just maybe they are waiting for Francis to publicly call Vigano a liar before they release Benedict’s statement. Anyway that’s what I would do. If I know what monsters they are up against surely Benedict and Vigano and Pentin also know what they are fighting. Truth will out.
Homosexuality Not A Problem In Abuse Scandal
Marie Collins, "one of the eight Irish abuse survivors who met with Pope Francis Aug. 25," — she was a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors — has rejected the notion that homosexuality has played a major role in the priest sexual abuse scandal.
She dismissed "the myth that it is all down to homosexual priests." She added that the notion in question is “a red herring.”
“I certainly don’t agree with it. We have heterosexual predators and we have homosexual predators. When it comes to child abuse I don’t believe homosexuality can be put down as the cause — it may suit some people to think that and they would like to think that, but I don’t think any studies have shown that this is the case.”
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mt, if you read my previous post on pedophilia which is sexual abuse against prepubescent children, and a minuscule part of the scandal concerning priests, although one perp could have hundreds of victims; usually the male perp is heterosexual not homosexual even if victims are male children.
The greater problem in the Church is ephbophilia, the abuse of teenagers who have adult looks and genitalia. This can be heterosexual abuse, homosexual abuse or bisexual abuse. In the general population it is about equal although heterosexual abuse isn’t as off-putting as homosexual abuse in many minds.
However of the abuse of teenagers by priests, over 80% is homosexual abuse and 20% heterosexual or bisexual.
Marie Collins is speaking of pedophilia or intentionally conflating the two out of political correctness in Ireland! In other words she is dead wrong!
Mark, no one cares....
Father McDonald, I read your previous post in question. I don't claim that Marie Collins' declaration in question is valid. I just wish to note her view in regard to the situation in question.
She has great "credibility" supposedly...certain Catholics played-up the fact that she had resigned in frustration from the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors.
Certain Catholics employed her resignation to attack His Holiness Pope Francis. The notion was that while Marie Collins was "serious" about the sexual abuse scandal, Pope Francis, in turn, was not serious about said scandal.
My point is simply that the "credible" Marie Collins has rejected the notion that homosexuality has played a major role in the priest sexual abuse scandal.
Many Catholics, of course, agree with her.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
What could Pope Benedict possibly do to the clear the air of the stench of this corrupt papacy, the likes of which the Church has not seen for 500 years, if then?
Henry, Viganò’s testimony must have corroboration from the highest level!
The "credible" Marie Collins...abuse victim, met Pope Francis on Saturday, August 25...former member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors.
Her comments in regard to the Pennsylvania Report:
"No one is shocked by it. When I say they're not shocked by it, they're not surprised by it because they've read it all before, in our own reports here in Ireland. It's not new to us; it's not something that we're surprised about."
She added that the report's contents are "horrific," but "it's nothing new."
================================================================================
I understand Marie Collins' comments in question.
The report's contents — allegations — are "horrific."
But it's vital to note:
1. The report contained allegations...allegations, against priests.
2. As Rome noted: "By finding almost no cases after 2002, the Grand Jury’s conclusions are consistent with previous studies showing that Catholic Church reforms in the United States drastically reduced the incidence of clergy child abuse."
====================================================================
Beyond that, we have known since the time of Bishop Judas, that Churchmen have betrayed Jesus Christ and His True Church.
We have known for decades that certain priests accused of sexual abuse had been transferred from parish to parish.
As Marie Collins declared: "No one is shocked by it. It's nothing new."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark! How old are you and are you reading the news? The scandal this time isn’t about the new abuse but the gravity of the abuse back then. What is NEW this time around I’d how bishops covered it up and the homosexual cabal still present in the Church. Viganò hits the nail on the head in terms of what he writes in his 11 page report/testimony.
It seems like Mark Thomas is a person who desperately needs to believe that popes must be infallible and impeccable in all aspects of their life, or the claims of the Catholic Church are not credible. I really cannot find any other reason why he so desperately defends the indefensible when it comes to the Holy Father. Some call it Papalotry, and it is deadly to one's faith. You can remain in the Catholic Church and admit that popes can, and often do, make mistakes. Sometimes, those mistakes are not mistakes, but evil choices. It happens. Popes fathered children. Popes sold the office of St. Peter. Popes dug up their predecessors and put the corpse on trial. Popes covered up sex abuse. Popes spread heresies. And one pope even denied that he knew Jesus Christ. And yet, we're still here Mark. Infallibily is real, but very limited, and no one (save Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary) is impeccable. Let your mind be at peace and trust in Christ. If the Holy Father is innocent, that will come to light. If not, so be it.
In regard to today's "BREAKING NEWS" about His Holiness Pope Francis and the Nuncio...the McCarrick Scandal, Pennsylvania Report...
If anything, my faith in God and His Holy Catholic Church has strengthened.
Filth exists within every religion...every institution on earth. But Holy Mother Church is the one "institution" attacked, bashed, and trashed in greater fashion than any other institution on earth.
Satan works overtime to attack the Pope and Church.
-- Pope Francis is the Vicar of Christ. I love Pope Francis. I submit to his God-given authority over me.
-- Pope Francis has the right to his good name. I refuse to rush to judgment in regard to claims lodged against His Holiness.
-- God is in charge of His Church. Should a Pope, Cardinal, bishop, priest have sinned...should a Pope resign...so be it. My faith in God and His Holy Catholic Church would not be shaken — not in the least.
-- I don't have worries in regard to bad news about Catholicism. I have faith in God. I love Holy Mother Church. Despite my desire to remain close to God and His Church, I continue to sin. I don't pass judgment upon anybody.
I leave the governance of the Church to Pope Francis and the Cardinals/bishops in communion with His Holiness.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas:
I commend you for your faith, and I agree with you, the pope is entitled to a good name, and the benefit of the doubt. I do not want to believe anything adverse about the Holy Father; I would hope every Catholic could say that.
And, I commend you for realizing that even if the pope has erred in his judgments and actions, this does not change the truth of the Catholic Faith.
Nevertheless, these are dark times. I cannot remember when someone of such prominence as Vigano would launch such an indictment, including the pope. It cannot be waved away. The matter must be investigated very thoroughly; the whole Church, and all who care about the Church, need this to happen.
And I daresay, if the pope and others around him resist such a thorough investigation, then please, let us have no more lectures from that quarter about "clericalism." Refusing to be accountable sounds like the height of clericalism to me!
So I hope the Holy Father will respond with some proposal for a credible way for this all to be aired out. The truth must come out, all of it.
I am not happy about any of this, I am very sad, as I hope all are. Yet if all this helps bring about the cleansing of the wounds, then that will be providential. Let us pray!
Thank you, Fr. Martin. I’ll say it again: Youre one of the good ones! TBTG for priests like you and FRAJM. So grateful for you, especially as we got NOTHING here locally today or last Sunday from priest or Bishop...
I think what Mark Thomas means by rushing to judgement is like when someone would accuse others of calumny and spreading gossip when they complain of abuse, or if someone said those who cover up abuse are "caca."
Father Allan J. McDonald said..."Mark! How old are you and are you reading the news? The scandal this time isn’t about the new abuse but the gravity of the abuse back then. What is NEW this time around I’d how bishops covered it up and the homosexual cabal still present in the Church. Viganò hits the nail on the head in terms of what he writes in his 11 page report/testimony."
Hello, Father McDonald. Father, I am a cradle Catholic who goes back to the Pontificate of Saint John XXIII.
Father, we have known for decades that bishops covered up sexual abuse that involved priests. How is that new?
Father, in regard to the "homosexual cabal still present in the Church": We have known for centuries that homosexuals have filled the ranks of the Church. Homosexuals will remain in place throughout the Church.
Anyway, Father McDonald, thank you for your holy service to God and His True Church.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Fr Martin Fox said..."Nevertheless, these are dark times. I cannot remember when someone of such prominence as Vigano would launch such an indictment..."
Father Fox, please know that I don't not mean the following in any sense that is nasty/condescending:
Father, I don't know as to your familiarity with the mind-boggling charges of faithlessness that Archbishop Lefebvre lodged repeatedly against Popes Blessed Paul VI and Saint John Paul II.
Archbishop Lefebvre was a prominent Conciliar Father.
I believe that, as least as fame (if you will) is concerned, during his time when he lodged horrific charges against the holy Popes in question, Archbishop Lefebvre was far more prominent than Carlo Maria Viganò is (or was until) today.
================================================================================
Father Fox, I believe that the following charges are far more serious than that which Archbishop Viganò said about Pope Francis:
Archbishop Lefebvre (with Bishop de Castro Mayer), 1986 A.D:
"Adopting the liberal religion of Protestantism and of the Revolution, the naturalistic principles of J.J. Rousseau, the atheistic liberties of the Declaration of the Rights of Man, the principle of human dignity no longer having any relation with truth and moral dignity, the Roman authorities turn their backs on their predecessors and break with the Catholic Church, and they put themselves at the service of the destroyers of Christianity and of the universal Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
"The present acts of John Paul II and the national episcopates illustrates, year by year, this radical change in the conception of the Faith, the Church, the priesthood, the world, and salvation by grace.
"The high point of this rupture with the previous Magisterium of the Church took place at Assisi, after the visit to the synagogue. The public sin against the one, true God, against the Incarnate Word, and His Church, makes us shudder with horror. John Paul II encourages the false religions to pray to their false gods — an immeasurable, unprecedented scandal."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Dan, what I meant by rush to judgment is found within the CCC, 2477, 2478, 2479.
Thank you, Dan.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas it may be that after this, what you consider to be the far more serious charges of Archbishop Lefebvre, will be considered.
Mark Thomas:
You can't compare Archbishop Lefebvre to Archbishop Viganò. Archbishop Vigano is a loyal son of the Church. Archbishop Lefebvre placed himself outside of the Church. Or it seems to me from his perspective, the modern Church, which he had a problem with, displaced the One, True, Church to which he had allegiance. Or was it just Vatican II and the change in the liturgy with which he had issues? At any rate, he spurned any rapprochement with Rome.
So what actually was his status vis-a-vis the Church of Rome? Maybe you can tell us.
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