Friday, August 10, 2018

I AGREE AND I DISAGREE; I AM CONFLICTED!


Abuse expert: Crisis is call to new vision of priesthood, accountability

Here is an excerpt from the longer article in Crux, which you can read HERE:

What do you think about this statement?

 “From my point of view, the temptation can be to return to a very strict, closed-fortress idea of Church, controlling everything,” he said, but “that will not work anymore. We need a new model of accountability and responsibility and a new way of educating the whole people of God in Christian ideals.”

My comments: 

We've been saying for more than 50 years we need new ways of doing things and we continue to hear it today. And this damnable phrase: "... a new way of educating the whole people of God in Christian IDEALS!" 

What the hell, literally, what the hell, IDEALS?????

Prior to the Vatican II, we were called to Christian Perfection, to Jesus Christ because HE taught us to "be perfect as your heavenly Father is Perfect!"

Jesus did not teach IDEALS or call people to  IDEALS! What post-Vatican II, spirit of Vatican II, Jesuitical crap!

In addition to that, I do understand that the spirit of Vatican II was foisted on Catholicism in the most authoritarian pre-Vatican II sort of way.

Returning to our great tradition of discipline, asceticism and the pursuit of perfection and trying to control the outcome as progressives did when they use the pre-Vatican II methods and shoved down the throats of unsuspecting Catholics, both clergy and laity, the spirit of Vatican II,  isn't possible today.

But there can be a grand reeducation of the clergy and religious that can help return to Catholic sanity. And yes, pre-Vatican II asceticism can also be restored with a stroke of the pen as Pope Francis recently changed the Catechism in the same manner.

And I would say in today's world, culture and secularism, much more virulent than the Protestantism of the 1500's, "a very strict, closed-fortress idea of Church" is the way to go!



13 comments:

TJM said...

just more lefty drivel: let's re-invest in failure and everything will be fine. It appears the TLM is a strong driver of new vocations and its adherents appear to be growing

Dan said...

I'll settle for shepherds that just teach the faith.

I'll settle for shepherds that don't seek to rub shoulders with celebrities.

I'll settle for shepherds that don't see records of abuse complaints as a 'plus' when considering advancement.

Francis comments on everything, why not the German bishops interpretation of canon law concerning non Catholics reception of the eucharist?

Anonymous said...

"a very strict, closed-fortress idea of Church" is the way to go!"

Circling the wagons or closing the "fortress" door works, but only for a limited time. When the circle us formed or the drawbridge raised, no one goes anywhere. Maintenance, rather than mission, becomes the norm.

"Go" Jesus said to His disciples and to us "into all the world." We were warned this business of evangelization would be messy, difficult, and dangerous, and that it would, necessarily, include suffering. Only when we allow the Spirit to move us beyond our fears, as was the event of Pentecost, does the Church begin to fulfill its mission of preaching the Good News to all.

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Fr. McD asked: What do you think about this statement?

“From my point of view, the temptation can be to return to a very strict, closed-fortress idea of Church, controlling everything,” he said, ..."

I am laughing out loud. RETURN????!!! RETURN to a very strict, closed-fortress idea of Church, controlling everything??????

This guy has got to be kidding me.

He clearly hasn't been sitting on the laity side of the altar.

Case in point: Fr. Phillips removal from St. John Cantius Church with no explanation to the parishioners, no consultation with the parishioners, no recourse for the parishioners. Silence. Nothing. Priests of the parish ordered by Cardinal Cupich not to speak to anyone about the situation, or to Fr. Phillips.

I've tried to get involved in various parishes on the administrative level over the years. Ha. Ha. Ha. Secrets, intrigue, selective release of key information, freezing people out.... To the clergy, it's still pray, pay and obey.

And anyone who doesn't think so is a member of the clergy!

God bless.
Bee

Anonymous said...

Fr. Zollner says, "From my point of view, the temptation can be to return to a very strict, closed-fortress idea of Church, controlling everything,” he said, but “that will not work anymore. We need a new model of accountability and responsibility and a new way of educating the whole people of God in Christian ideals.”

Victor said...

The main idea of the Modernists, progressives, or whatever you want to call them is that the world has the Truth, and the Church needs to accept it. And then world being in constant flux, the world'sw truth is never absolute/unchangeable. Even with some resistance, this acceptance is what happened after Vatican II, although if one carefully reads the V2 documents one already sees in some of them an openness to the world in this way.
Of course, the Church has always been under attack, as long as Satan in its cohorts exist this will continue. And so is the world, which throughout history has been strongly influenced by the Evil one. The Church needs to always be on the defensive, as well as on the offensive because of this. This is no longer the case. The Church, rather, is acquiescive to the world so as to be accepted by it, an important ideal these days to have a good image.

Indeed, what does the Church stand for these days? Social justice? Women's rights a la Pelosi? Being "good" to your neighbour? Environmentalism? I do not think the answer is very clear anymore, even for the priests. What Catholics believe in Germany differs in Poland. Before V2 you knew what the Church stood for, and much of the world did not like it. Indeed, I would think every priest had a copy of Ludwig Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" to help the faithful and himself. But today, even the V2 Catechism is in fluidity depending on the whims of the popes.

In short, the Church must return to being offensive, as well as defensive, and her "soldiers" must know and accept what She teaches as the "weaponry," no matter what the world thinks. That "ain't gonna happin" with Her current V2 worshiping leadership.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

In the so-called days of circling the wagons of the pre-Vatican II Church, when there wasn't much or any ecumenical dialogue, joint services, engagement with atheists, agnostics or secularists, there was most definitely a going out to the world to win converts to Catholicism.

Think also of the great institutions of the Church which flourished in pre-Vatican II times but are almost gone today, religious life and their educational system which welcomed non-Catholics, hospitals, soup kitchens and the like.

In the USA at the time of the Council but before it filtered down to local parishes and gained international headlines, conversions were soaring and without an RCIA model. Many do not recall this, but by the late sixties and early 70's that all but dried up because "we didn't want to proselytize" or still Protestants or Jews away from their institutions--unecumenical and anti-interfaith to do so.

I think also of covenant communities like the Alleluia Community in Augusta that touts being an "alternate society" and based upon the circle the wagons approach, yet they are quite a leaven in the Augusta community and active in spreading their faith in their secular jobs as well as helping the poor!

Anonymous said...

It starts with the laity forming informal groups. Lets call them Societies of St. Joseph. They meet to pray a little talk a little and invite their parish priest to listen. Some might suggest why not just join the parish council. The parish council is not the right forum. It has become a symbol of VATICAN 2, the source of a major part of our problems. We need a counter reformation of the pew sitters mindful of our Traditions. Sounds protestant to you? Well, we have plenty to protest. What? Banal liturgies, even organized and protected sexual abuse cover ups for starters. How about oppression of faithful clergy?

This can be done the time is right. We have not a moment to loose.


Dan said...

"The main idea of the Modernists, progressives, or whatever you want to call them is that the world has the Truth, and the Church needs to accept it."

You mean like asking young people what advice they have for "future church" by hosting a youth synod?

Anonymous said...

Bee, absolutely correct! Exactly my experience over the years as well.

Anonymous said...

"Case in point: Fr. Phillips removal from St. John Cantius Church with no explanation to the parishioners, no consultation with the parishioners, no recourse for the parishioners. Silence. Nothing. Priests of the parish ordered by Cardinal Cupich not to speak to anyone about the situation, or to Fr. Phillips."

The reason(s) may well be none of your business. Ever consider that?

And if you long for the "Good Ol' Days" of Catholicism, that manner of transfer was exactly how it was done. No one in the pews whined "But they didn't consult with us!!!"

TJM said...

Cardinal Cupich is a big time lefty who hates tradition and Father Phillips embodied tradition in spades. I wouldn't believe anything Cupich has to say. He is an intellectual lightweight and shouldn't be in charge of a major see. He is heterodox

ByzRC said...


This priest is an abuse expert. Hold on while I pick myself up off the floor laughing. Perhaps he and others like him are knowledgeable but, it seems that this "expertise" is being utilized in symbolic ways only.

"But there can be a grand reeducation of the clergy and religious that can help return to Catholic sanity. And yes, pre-Vatican II asceticism can also be restored with a stroke of the pen as Pope Francis recently changed the Catechism in the same manner."

Father - Do you really, deep in your heart, believe that this could happen? The only strokes of Francis' pen that I can see coming are those that continue advancing, little by little and deflection by deflection the liberal, '70s style agenda that we so often discuss here. Like the Doubting Thomas, when I see a Papal Decree and, other tangible evidence of corrective action, I'll believe it but, until then, I have little confidence that those in charge are committed to more than the "right sounding" sound bites, "ideals", review boards, additional layers of policies and procedures etc. all of which will likely be of questionable effectiveness.