What year would you say this photo was taken?
If you said 1930, then you win the prize to read my post below free of charge:
Do Catholics have to give obedient consent of the will to a particular theology of the Church or this, that or the other theology? Yes, they may, but no, they don’t have to give it! We only have to give assent to defined doctrine and dogma is the highest form of it, but both require our anssent and obedience.For example, there is a theology of limbo for unborn children. A Catholic is free to believe this but is not required to do so. Those that don’t have the backing of popes, Pope Benedict XVI, in particular. Limbo is a theology not a doctrine and certainly not a dogma.
The ideology of rupture, masquerading as a theology, is new to the Church since the close of the Second Vatican Council. St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI made inroads into giving the Council with all its ambiguities the proper interpretation in continuity with the 2000 year Magisterium of the Church. They insisted that Vatican II did not create a new Church or force believers to become something else than what they were when they were baptized Catholic and eventually gave an adult consent to their Faith.
To strip Catholics of their Catholic identity and force them into a new kind of pseudo-Christianity, wreaks of manipulation, coercion, spiritual abuse, authoritarianism and has elements of the political aspects of the Protestant Reformation in monarchical Europe during the time of Martin Luther. It is wrong. It is evil.
Cardinal Roche of the Dicastery of Divine Worship seems to be the wrong person in this position and not intellectually qualified to pontificate on the liturgy or the Church, tells the truth and an untruth recently.
He lets the cat out of the bag. The post Vatican II Church as incarnated by the Germany synodal way is a completely different Church than the one prior to post-Vatican II synods and Vatican II itself.
Read this article. It makes sense to me:
From the National Review:
In a stunning interview, Cardinal Archbishop Arthur Roche, the man the Vatican has placed in charge of extinguishing the Traditional Latin Mass that Benedict XVI in 2007 had widely permitted, admitted in an interview with the BBC that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and his radical traditionalist followers are right — that the faith once delivered to the saints has been abolished and substituted by the Church in the 1960s.
“The theology of the Church has changed,” argued Roche. “Whereas before the priest represented, at a distance, all the people — they were channeled through this person who alone was celebrating the Mass.” Now, however, Roche stated that “it is not only the priest who celebrates the liturgy but also those who are baptized with him, and that is an enormous statement to make.”
Roche is of course misstating the old theology. The priest celebrates the Mass not as a representative of all the people, but in persona Christi. All present at Mass assist him in doing so. All talk of distance is a silly slander.
Roche’s words follow the line pursued by more-radical theologians after the Second Vatican Council. In fact, this is the very line of thought, when I encountered it in Karl Rahner’s Theological Investigations, that caused me to become a traditionalist. (Though Rahner by that time used the language of “president” and “assembly” rather than that of “priest.”)
Just as important as Roche’s confirmation that the present Vatican has done away with wide permission for the old Mass is his affirmation of the underpinning assumptions that Benedict XVI used to license it — namely, Benedict’s “hermeneutic of continuity,” or the idea that the Second Vatican Council did not impose upon the faithful anything substantively new or different from the faith that the Church held before it. Therefore, the old Mass and the new Mass must express the very same faith.
That is not this Vatican’s position. Roche and the Vatican agree with progressives who view the old Mass as unsuited to a Church that has a new theology. And so they agree with radical traditionalists, and the Lefebvrites, that the purpose of the new Mass was to impose a new religion upon the Church.
Benedict’s view — though I’m not sure that it was correct — at least tried to address the crisis of the Church. The Vatican’s current view can only deepen it.
17 comments:
Reading Cdl. Roche's statements reminds me of the following:
About 20 years ago I recall reading about a former protestant pastor from Detroit (Alex Jones... not kidding), after reading the early Church Fathers and how they worshiped, brought over fifty plus souls from his former church into the Catholic Church.
Mr. Jones once said the following:
"If it's new, it's not true; if it's true, it's not new."
Mr. Jones then went on the become a deacon for the Archdiocese of Detroit. May he rest in peace.
The most telling mannerism for priests, bishops and even laity is their reaction to the Traditional Mass. The almost visceral revulsion and/or fear so many display for the rite speaks volumes.
The New Eve and her obedience to the Will of God
The first Eve was fashioned by God from the body of a man, Adam. Christ, the new Adam, was fashioned by God from the body of a woman, the New Eve.
The first Eve was created without sin. The second Eve was conceived without sin.
The first Eve was created by God without the aid of a human mother; the second Adam was created by God from a woman, without the aid of a human father.
The first Eve gave her yes to a Fallen Angel and thereby disobeyed God. The New Eve gave her yes to a Glorious Angel and thereby obeyed the Will of God.
The first Eve was driven from Paradise because of her disobedience to God. The New Eve would be first among all those in the Heavenly Paradise, because of her willing obedience to God.
The first Eve disobeyed God and so her life would be one of sin and its earthly and injurious consequences. The New Eve, conceived immaculate and being ever obedient to God, would escape the consequences of sin and its injurious effects .
The first Eve is known as the Mother of the all who are Earthly born. The Blessed Virgin, the New Eve, is the Mother of All who are spiritually born.
I think that, if there are a few Catholics who react to the "Traditional" Mass with fear or revulsion, most react with "Meh" or some other expression of a lack of enthusiasm.
Fr K you really need to get out more. Around here in the north of the diocese of Cincinnati it is either like it or for the most part revulsion. There is really no center and it tends to break along age lines and education, especially priests. The less educated and older don't seem to like it or even hate it "stupid latin" and "he's hiding something from us"
to quote Twain
"When the end of the world comes I'm going to Cincinnati, They're always 10 years behind the times"
Father McDonald said..."St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI made inroads into giving the Council with all its ambiguities the proper interpretation in continuity with the 2000 year Magisterium of the Church."
Pope Benedict XVI, via his 2005 A.D. address to the Curia, had made it clear that decades prior to his Pontificate, our holy Popes had established the "proper" interpretation of Vatican II.
Pope Benedict XVI declared:
"The hermeneutic of discontinuity is countered by the hermeneutic of reform, as it was presented first by Pope John XXIII in his Speech inaugurating the Council on 11 October 1962 and later by Pope Paul VI in his Discourse for the Council's conclusion on 7 December 1965."
========================================================================================
Guided by the Holy Ghost, our holy Popes, from Saint John XXIII to Francis, along with bishops in communion with said Popes, have rendered the proper understanding of Vatican II.
Today, via God's authorization, Pope Francis, as well as bishops in communion with him, render the proper interpretation of Vatican II.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I will concur with my fellow Egyptian Buckeye to the extent that the everyone I have met who doesn’t like it are very ignorant of it and the history of the Church. The majority who take the time to attend an EF (sic) Mass are taken by it. The more fallen away they are the more likely they are to move to our parish.
And as far as the photo goes, I would have guessed ~1930 due to the Fritz Lange lighting. It appears versus populum.
The empty cassock has weighed in - yawn
EgyptianL
It doesn't matter what the indifferent say. You and I have both witnessed the almost knee-jerk reaction that the Traditional Mass incites, often at its mere mention. I'm sure that, like me, you've heard more than enough Geritol-fed voices thunder, "We're not having any of THAT in my parish!"
The Novus Ordo is to liturgy and worship what the leisure suit is to fashion.
Jerome,
Your ending was brilliant!
I think these anti-Latin types are lazy slugs. They do what’s convenient for them
The following is a comment by a retired English professor, a former Anglican, who was received into the Catholic Church 2 years ago ( on the Decrevi Determined to be Catholic podcast) :
“I pray that the RC Church will learn the lessons of the utter collapse of Anglicanism. All the ‘new’ ideas now circulating in the RC Church have exact parallels in Anglicanism - ‘situational ethics’ endorsements of sexual sin, complete rewriting of the Book of Common Prayer to reduce mention of evil, ordaining women, same sex marriage etc….Bright with hope, all of these reforms have crashed and burned. We got rid of our faith, burned through our endowments, and saw congregations dwindle away. It is finished…..I have come to know the numerous young and deeply devout Catholics in the campus catacombs. For them Vatican II is ancient history of no relevance. They want to drink deeply from the Jacob’s Well of two millennia of Catholic spirituality. They treasure the TLM -instinctively…..they leave their first TLM like the envoys of St Vladimir after the liturgy at Santa Sophia ‘not knowing whether we were in heaven or earth’.
Young people were NOT supposed to react this way. That they do is a powerful signal from the Holy Spirit. Allow these young people to drink deeply the living water for which they thirst! “
Paul,
Yet the lazy and evil hierarchy wants to crush the TLM. They will get their just desserts in the afterlife.
TJM,
I am not sure at all that the Catholic hierarchy that wants to in effect abrogate the TLM are lazy and evil.
Such Catholic hierarchy, Roche and very many like him, since they were young priests in the 1970s and the 1980s worked very hard at being innovative and “creative” with the Mass and liturgy for decades! And unless they are in totally unhealthy denial, or are clinically delusional, at some level inside themselves they would have to acknowledge that millions of young Catholics from the 1970s till the present have found their efforts at liturgical renewal and liturgical “creativity” to be boring, uninteresting and even banal, lame and embarrassing……and walked away. That is a lot to cope with! Then add the increasing numbers of young Catholics attending the TLM since 2007 and increasing numbers of young seminarians desiring to celebrate the TLM…..I’d say their reaction to all this indicates they are more sad, flawed human beings than truly evil men.
The only time I think the label evil might apply is when some of the highest in the Catholic hierarchy, including Francis, have stated that the majority of young Catholics attending the TLM (and traditional seminarians) are in various ways mentally unbalanced and or emotionally stunted and so on…..that cruel inaccurate stereotype, that lie and slander, that calumny (coming from the pope and high ranking prelates) comes close to being evil.
I can strongly recommend any Catholic listen to any of the YouTube clips of Brian Holdsworth, a young Catholic convert, who now attends the TLM - especially Google : Brian Holdsworth Attending My First Latin Mass or Brian Holdsworth Why the Youth Want Tradition…or Why the Church is Losing the Culture War etc….most only go for 10 minutes. He is intelligent, mature, articulate and very importantly is not at all angry and is one of those people who it is said “has not a nasty bone in his body” - in manner, the very opposite of a Michael Voris or Tim Gordon et al….
I love how he as a millennial, musician, and formerly fully immersed in the culture, music, spirit, outlook of millennials tries to explain how and why so many other millennials find novus ordo liturgical creativity boring, uninteresting and even lame - and he articulates well his confusion and sad astonishment re the hostility (his word) of Francis, Roche etc towards the TLM….
Sorry, but to ramble on and digress it amazes me how much things have not changed since the 1970s…..I can remember reading articles 40 to 50 years ago that described how some leading Catholic clerics, even bishops and Cardinals, having heard all the lies, half truths, caricatures, distortions and slander about Lefebvre and his followers ….actually going to Econe in the 70s and 80s and (after all they heard) being astounded that here were young men, young seminarians who were actually quite sane, and mostly sensible, mature young men you loved the faith and loved the Church. I loved reading that MANY years ago - how SOME Vatican hierarchy were honest enough to admit that……Yet here we are 50 years later and young traditional Catholics like Brian Holdsworth and thousands like him are being insulted, caricatured and slandered as were young men at Econe last century…..lefty, liberal prelates apparently lack the imagination to even come up with new lies.
Fr K,
While I at least partly agree that probably not many ordinary lay Catholics react to the TLM with fear and revulsion to the TLM - I and others have witnessed a weird fear and revulsion of the TLM by many older Catholic priests.
I can recall in the 90s liberal priests relatively calmly explaining their intellectual disagreements with, for example, the moral theology of JP2’s 1993 Veritatis Splendor but have stronger memories of older liberal priests having a strong, visceral (as in emotional more than intellectual) almost meltdown over Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum….to at times an extent that it would probably take a skilful psychiatrist to explain.
Italian bishop Luca Brandolini spoke for many priests:
“I can’t fight back the tears. This is the saddest moment in my life as a man, a priest and a bishop. It is a day of mourning! All our work for genuine reform, only inspired by the desire to renew the Church, has been cancelled!”
Again, such bizarre overreactions to SP, is material only a mental health clinician could fathom.
As John Nolan on this blog used to state: it would be almost unknown for any Rabbi or Muslim imam to have any such disdain and animosity, or even lack of respect to Hebrew or Arabic or each religion’s liturgical traditions - as significant numbers of older Catholic priests and bishops have for Latin and a 1,000 plus or even 1,500 years long liturgical tradition.
And to think that in July 2021, Pope Francis abrogated Summorum Pontificum! While Benedict was still alive.
REEKS of manipulation.
WREAKS havok.
Our world is rapidly devolving and the young that have not been brainwashed by secular education and media instinctively recognize they are the ones who will be left to pick up the pieces. At 59 I probably will not be around for the inevitable collapse, but my sons, one who is a seminarian, and my daughter will. And nothing strips away blinders and false pretense like being given a great responsibility and when that occurs the first thing we search for is the truth because truth is the foundation for hope and this generation is finding the truth not just in the liturgy of the TLM but in the doctrine and dogma that it reflects and vice versa. It's not about "tradition" versus "progressivism" but simply about the fullness of truth. It is said that we learn nothing except when we suffer. You'd think after witnessing the implosion of the Catholic faith over the last 50 plus years that we would question the wisdom of the decisions made after VII, but instead we are watching the experimental spirit of the modernist vanguard double down in desperation to prevent the inevitable return to the tradition which has sustained the Church for 2,000 years, but before that happens we must suffer a bit more. But we must forget that Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and while we all should take comfort in that promises we must not forget the implication that comes with it.
Post a Comment