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Tuesday, July 26, 2022

PAPAL MASS IN EDMONTON, BEAUTIFUL FOR A MODERN MISSAL MASS BUT VERY ECCLETIC AS IS NORMAL FOR A MODERN MISSAL MASS

 The choir was great and the vestments very traditional. At the beginning of the Mass it was said that the vestments would reflect indigenous inculturation, but as far as I could tell, the chasubles and miters were very traditional as was the cope the Holy Father wore along with a very nice miter. 

The choir and music was nice but very eclectic. This is typical of the modern Mass to be disjointed this way. 

Accommodating the Holy Father’s inability to celebrate the entire Mass himself, he wore a cope and celebrated the Introductory and concluding rites from his chair and seated. He spoke English for these parts of the Mass, but his homily was in Spanish. The Eucharistic Prayer, celebrated by the archbishop of the area was in Latin and spoken quite clearly and eloquently, although the Mystery of Faith was in English. Very odd. 

Overall, it was a beautiful Mass for the Feast of Saints Joachim and Anne, but very eclectic. Unfortunately the propers were not chanted. Even if all the other music remained, the chanted propers, which are Scriptures assigned to particular Masses and a lavish use of them as Vatican II requested, would have improved the Mass. Why this isn’t mandatory is beyond me and so opposed to what Vatican II requested. 

42 comments:

TJM said...

No French?

TJM said...

Odd that in a multi-lingual setting they did not use the Latin Sanctus and Agnus Dei. On balance, the musical selections were banal and not drawn from the treasury of sacred music called for by Vatican II. At least the vestments were nice and they said the Canon in Latin so it was a step up from the usual.

Jerome Merwick said...

This dog-and-pony-show approach to papal Masses is beyond worn out.

I can still remember when Pope Benedict visited the U.S., he attended a large outdoor Mass, in a stadium, if I remember and the entire rite was ridiculously stacked with endless additions and backflips of displays of multiculturalism. If these people think they are impressing anyone, they are sadly mistaken.

Just once, it would be wonderful to actually had a Mass for a papal visit that simply focused on being the Holy Sacrifice that forgives our sins, instead of a circus.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I suspect that, like myself, many Catholics are sick of all the B.S..

mark said...

I give thanks unto God for Pope Francis. Thanks to the promise of Jesus Christ, Pope Francis is certain to preserve for the Holy People of God the True Religion .

I have been uplifted time and again via the tremendous love, joy, and respect that God's Holy People have exhibited when they have been amongst Pope Francis.

I recall when Pope Saint Paul VI initiated to our spiritual benefit the process of worldwide Papal travel. Today, that process has poured forth countless blessings via Pope Francis' Apostolic Visit to Canada, and Mass in Edmonton.

What a beautiful, uplifting sight. Pope Francis...with, and guiding, his spiritual flock entrusted to him...in communion with each other...love, joy, and respect flowing in abundance...Pope and flock, walking together toward God.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

MT,

Pope Francis is cruel to Faithful Catholics. You are blind

Jerome Merwick said...

I stand by my words.

The B.S. will end one day. Maybe I'll live to see it. What passes as Catholic worship today is unsustainable.

mark said...

I said..."What a beautiful, uplifting sight. Pope Francis...with, and guiding, his spiritual flock entrusted to him...in communion with each other...love, joy, and respect flowing in abundance...Pope and flock, walking together toward God."

I am certain that the above is present when Fathers McDonald, and Kavanaugh, are amongst their spiritual children. The Holy People of God are filled with love and joy for Fathers McDonald, and Kavanaugh — at Mass, and/or parish gatherings.

All the nonsense, within, and without, the Church — liturgy wars, fake news concocted to defame Pope Francis, as well as additional Churchmen...the latest unimportant stories from Hollywood, and world of sports... — is rendered useless.

Even the negativity in regard to the Canadian Indigenous children...the love, joy, and peace that flow from God through Holy Mother Church, the Holy Mass, Pope Francis, is trumped.

Pope Francis, Father McDonald, Father Kavanaugh, our local priests...lead us to Jesus Christ...fill us with love, and peace.

Pax.

Mark Thomas


— Pope Saint Pius X, 1912 A.D:

"Love the Pope."

"Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough...we do not place his orders in doubt...we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."

Jerome Merwick said...

TJM:

Multi-lingual setting?

Sacred languages are only for OTHER religions. This Vatican administration will slobber all over itself to pander to Muslims in Arabic or Hindus in Sanskrit, but LATIN MUST BE DAMNED YOU STUPID PELAGIANS!

Now we have to apologize to the ancestors of Indians FOR WHAT THE CANDADIAN GOVERNMENT DID? How about those Indians apologize for what THEY did to the missionaries? It's one think to turn the other cheek. It's quite another to seek out offenses and insist on taking responsibility for all of them, just to discredit your own faith--and make no mistake, that's what is happening, with cold, calculated, and contrived planning.

Anyone who can't see the reeking double-standard of this hypocritical excuse of leadership is lying to themselves. The stench of of hypocrisy is only exceeded by the sheer stupidity of people dumb enough to buy it.

rcg said...

Lake Superior, even in summer, is way too cold for an inflatable lounge chair.

Jerome Merwick said...

"The Holy People of God are filled with love and joy..."

And therein lies the problem: The smugness of complacency and spiritual self-satisfaction.

"THE HOLY PEOPLE OF GOD"?

If we were truly the Holy People of God, it wouldn't have taken nearly 40 years to get the U.S. Supreme Court to reverse Roe.

If we were truly the Holy People of God, we wouldn't have politicians trading on their Catholic identity for election, only to betray that same Catholic identity by being the staunchest of all abortion supporters.

If we were truly the Holy People of God, we wouldn't have a divorce rate that equals the Protestants and pagans.

If we were truly the Holy People of God, there wouldn't be ONE "Gay Pride" parade in this country that wouldn't be stopped in its tracks by prayerful processions of Catholics.

If we were truly the Holy People of God, every parish would need more than 15 to 30 minutes for Confessions every week and they would surely need more than one priest to hear them all.

If we were truly the Holy People of God, we wouldn't have Communicants casually grabbing the host and popping it in their mouths like a snackrament.

I could go on, but my point is, stop kidding yourself. We are in serious trouble. We have a long, LONG way to go before we become the "Holy People of God". What a laughable idea.

TJM said...

Mark Thomas,

You will convince no one with these statements. The Pope is not an absolute monarch and if you were truly educated in the Catholic Faith you would know that. He is only infallible when he speaks "ex cathedra."

Jerome Merwick said...

St. Pius X is my favorite pope. I take his words seriously. I also take these words seriously, the words of St. Francis of Assisi:

"Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

"The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

"Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

"There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

"Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

"Those who preserve their fervor and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer."

I also take seriously these words of St. Jerome:

“Heretics change or alter their doctrine from day to day. In fact, if a theologian learned in the Scriptures contends with them, overwhelming them with proof from the Sacred Books, what do they do but straightaway look around in search of a new doctrine. They do not seek knowledge for the sake of salvation, but look around for new doctrine to vanquish the opponent.”

If we "LOVE" our pope, we are doing him no favors by canonizing him while he walks the earth in the flesh. We should pray for him and do penance for him. Our confrontation is not with the pope himself, but the errors he embraces and propagates.



ByzRus said...

The Holy See is the last absolute monarchy in the world. The pope is answerable to no human power and has absolute authority over the Roman Catholic Church. The Vatican operates within a framework of a theocratic absolute elective monarchy.

Multiple sources used for this response.

TJM said...

ByzRus,

What are your sources? Here is what Benedict XVI had to say:

“The Pope is not an absolute monarch whose thoughts and desires are law. On the contrary: the Pope’s ministry is a guarantee of obedience to Christ and to his Word. He must not proclaim his own ideas, but rather constantly bind himself and the Church to obedience to God’s Word, in the face of every attempt to adapt it or water it down, and every form of opportunism.
Pope John Paul II did this when, in front of all attempts, apparently benevolent to the human person, and in the face of erroneous interpretations of freedom, he unequivocally stressed the inviolability of the human being and of human life from the moment of conception until natural death. The freedom to kill is not true freedom, but a tyranny that reduces the human being to slavery.

The Pope knows that in his important decisions, he is bound to the great community of faith of all times, to the binding interpretations that have developed throughout the Church’s pilgrimage. Thus, his power is not being above, but at the service of, the Word of God. It is incumbent upon him to ensure that this Word continues to be present in its greatness and to resound in its purity, so that it is not torn to pieces by continuous changes in usage.

The Chair is – let us say it again – a symbol of the power of teaching, which is a power of obedience and service, so that the Word of God- the truth! – may shine out among us and show us the way of life”. – Benedict XVI, Homily in Saint John the Lateran, May 7, 2005

Православный физик said...

He (the pope) may not be an absolute monarch technically, but in practice he might as well be one. It is certainly how Francis acts.

ByzRus said...

I don't feel that I have complete context here, however, Benedict seems to be referring to his ministry.

That aside, TC was not subject to legislative process. Certainly seems that way given how Benedict's absolute authority with SP was in an instant made null and void by TC.

The pope approves the creation of bishops, convenes consistories, accepts resignations and seemingly is only rebuked via dubia the most recent instance of this has been completely ignored.


ByzRus said...

I'm at work and cannot devote more time here. The Vaticans website is a mess. Go to www.newadvent.org and search for the pope. There, a detailed explanation accompanied by justification from sacred scripture should answer any and all questions as debating this is counterproductive.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Jerome - a few wise words from your favorite pope: "Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her . . . but judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgments . . . then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone." Pope Pius X, Allocution of May 10, 1909, AAS 463-464.

John Nolan said...

Technically the pope is an absolute monarch with regard to the Vatican City State, although in practice he delegates its governance to others. His authority over the Universal Church is not that of an absolute monarch. Pastor Aeternus (Vatican I, 1870) makes it clear that the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter so that by His revelation they might discover new doctrine (ut eo revelante novam doctrinam patefacerent) but that with His assistance they might sacredly preserve (sacre custodirent) and faithfully expound (fideliter exponerent) the revelation handed down from the Apostles, that is to say the deposit of faith.

The (current) English translation of the Roman Canon refers to those who 'holding to the truth, pass on the Catholic and Apostolic faith', which includes the pope and bishops.

Incidentally, there are a number of absolute monarchies still in existence, for example the Sultan of Brunei and the King of Saudi Arabia.

TJM said...

ByzRus,

I gave you the statement of Benedict XVI, probably the most brilliant and scholarly Pope of our lifetime. Can't you accept that? Unlike Traditionis Crudelis (Custodes), Summorum Pontificum was voluntary and freed priests and lay Catholics from dictatorial liberal bishops. TC is an ultra vires diktat whose methods Russian Commissars would approve.

Fr K,

You don't give a tinkers damn about that statement, otherwise you would not be disobeying papal decrees and and Vatican II by changing words to the Mass on your own initiative. Ever hear of a wolf in sheeps clothing? Look in the mirror.

Jerome Merwick said...

As I said earlier, the confrontation is not with the pope himself, but the errors he embraces and propagates.

I am obliged to love my pope. However, not unlike the time of Catherine of Siena, this is a very difficult time to be a Catholic and know which pope we can trust. We even have good reason--in fact PUBLIC ADMISSIONS--from Cardinal electors that this pope may well not have been canonically elected by the rules.

Like Joseph Biden, Francis will always have a question mark lingering over his title. But all that aside, what are Catholics to do if and when their pope stops being Catholic? Do we owe our allegiance to a person, a personality or the truths of our faith?

Perhaps the priests reading this need to reflect on a few questions:

If a pope issues a Motu Proprio demanding that you "bless" homosexual unions, would you obey?

If a pope commands that you deny communion to all white people who refuse to publicly apologize at Mass for their "privilege" would you comply?

If a pope commands that every Catholic Church install a pachamama demon statue in a prominent place, would you comply?

If a pope decides to start ordaining women priests, are you ready to welcome your new parochial "vicarette"?

If a pope tells you to stop hearing Confessions and just tell everyone to "absolve" themselves from now on would you comply?

These are all possible dilemmas we might all have to face in our lifetime as the auto-demolition of our faith continues. What would you choose? Would any of us have the courage to hold the line against such "progress"?

John Nolan said...

Regarding the recent Mass in Edmonton, Fr McDonald laments the lack of chanted Propers. In fact the lectionary Propers (Responsorial Psalm and so-called Gospel acclamation) were chanted. There are no prescribed melodies for these, and some settings can verge on the operatic. This is particularly noticeable, to English ears at least, in St Peter's where the RP is rendered in Italian by a cantor who sees himself as a reincarnation of Pavarotti.

The Introits and Communions given in the Missal are not designed to be sung. Of course the optimal choice would be the Propers from the 1974 Graduale (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia/Tract, Offertory, Communion) and whereas they would suit a Solemn Latin Mass, they would seem anomalous in a celebration where even the sung Ordinary is in the vernacular and in a popular up-beat style. They require considerable skill in execution, and how many modern pew-sitters would opt to sit through a long melismatic Gradual, even when provided with a translation? After all, they have had nigh on sixty years of dumbed-down liturgy whose musical content would make an advertising jingle seem like high art.

TJM said...

Jerome Merwick,

A few years ago I would have laughed at the questions you pose but based on what is going on in Germany you may be onto something. Pope Francis and his minions do seem like they are on the other team.

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Byz - TJM has a disability it seems.

He doesn't have the ability to recognize the difference between rearranging two lines in a Collect from the 17th Sunday of Ordinary time and calling the pope a schismatic, heretic, apostate, idoator, socialist, fascist, distator, and other choice names.

But then, we knew that already...

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

John, if there is to be true continuity between the ancient and modern Mass and in faithfulness to Vatican II, why not make the propers, meaning the Introit, offertory and communion antiphons mandatory? When I celebrate our cathedral’s EF Mass, and as fate would have it, I am celebrating the last one there this Sunday, those propers in that missal is/are exactly, word for word, what the schola chants from their Graduale. That so have been true for the modern Mass. and in the TLM, sung or spoken, these are never omitted, but are in the modern Mass by default.

ByzRus said...

Fr. MJK,

I don't know what else to say on the matter. The resource I provided and John Nolan's response seem to provide adequate clarity. The Vatican as a sovereign entity needs to be considered separately from the ministry itself. Similar to your experience, positive affirmation, akin to a loyalty oath, always seems to be required.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

Long story short, if the dems greatest fear is the Trump gets re-elected in 2024, the blame goes not to Trump, but the corrupt Joe Biden and friends. But the corrupt election process won’t allow Trump to win again. So the current corrupt and inept VP will win.

ByzRus said...

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said: "But the corrupt election process won’t allow Trump to win again."

Some questions:

-As there is no proof of widespread corruption, why continue to fan this flame? The Electoral College continues to be the mechanism that creates equality between the states.
-Would you really want Trump as president again? He has proven himself to be untrustworthy, self-serving, uncaring and is amoeba-like in that he will morph into whatever you want him to be.
-Why aren't we focusing on potential candidates like DeSantis, Rubio, Scott, Cheyney, anyone other than the one who, evidently, either encouraged the events of 1/6, or, did absolutely nothing to stop such a disgusting, deadly and embarrassing siege on our capital?

Wouldn't such rhetoric only give rise to the notion that Republicans are extremist, racist, out of touch and must be stopped?

TJM said...

Fr K,

Physician heal thyself and get to a confessional before it is too late!

TJM said...

ByzRus,

Your last sentence describes the Democratic Party to a tee!

If you don’t vote Democrat, you ain’t Black opined Joe Biden! That sounds racist. Extreme? Killing babies up to the time they come down the birth canal and foisting sex education on Kindergartens and then threaten to withhold federal funds for school lunches. That sounds extreme. Out of touch? How about telling low income folks they can overcome high gas prices by purchasing a $60,000 electric car. Marie Antoinette anyone?


John Nolan said...

Fr McDonald,

The emergence in the second millennium of the Low Mass or missa privata, in other words a Mass deprived (privata) of the ceremonies attendant upon Solemn Mass and said or chanted in a monotone, meant that the Propers were included in the altar missal, and the celebrant said these even when they were being sung by the subdeacon, deacon or schola. The requirement to do so was dropped some years before the Novus Ordo was introduced; in the case of the Epistle and Gospel before Vatican II. This was a return to an older practice.

That the priest in effect celebrated a Low Mass in the context of a High Mass was certainly an anomaly, but it had the advantage that nothing was omitted from the Mass. In Austria, for example, the interlectionary chants were often covered by an instrumental piece, the 'epistle sonata', but the celebrant still said them. Should the organist wish to play a lengthy improvisation during the Offertory (a not uncommon occurrence in the EF even today), he knows the Offertory verse will not be omitted.

ByzRus said...

"TJM said...

Fr K,

Physician heal thyself and get to a confessional before it is too late!"

What's good for the goose??? Do you not feel that you regularly throw barbs and make assumptions about people, that cannot be substantiated, such that you are immune? Is it not possible that people can be driven beyond their point of patience when they are repeatedly, cruelly and, at times, slanderously provoked with "loyalty oath" affirmations being demanded of them? How are you being fair and/or reasonable?

"Your last sentence describes the Democratic Party to a tee! etc."

Fine, so what is your solution and what are you doing about it other than volleying on a priest's blog? The yahuh/nuhuh/loyaty oath(s) accomplish nothing, it is a repetitive "conversation" and nothing the one that you usually target says requires yahuh/nuhuh and/or a loyalty oath affirmation. I believe that I read and consider the viewpoints of others critically and fairly. Perhaps I'm just not on your playground, in the back of your bus, or, within the echo chamber some here occupy?

John Nolan said...

TJM

Shame on you for traducing the memory of Queen Marie Antoinette, unjustly vilified during her lifetime and unjustly condemned and executed. She certainly never said 'qu'ils mangent de la brioche' which is attributed to a French princess of a previous century (no-one is sure whom).

Loosely translated as 'let them eat cake' the phrase does not necessary imply heartlessness or ignorance. At a time of bread shortages, it could be seen as encouraging bakers to sell their luxury bread (brioche) at an affordable price.

TJM said...

John Nolan,

I am actually an admirer of Marie Antionette but I am using a phrase the leftwing loons in the US might understand. She was vilified by the Left in France as conservatives are vilified by the Left in the US. Father K is in the leftwing loon camp.

ByzRus,

I again ask. Why do you come here if you are an Eastern Rite Catholic? Should I go to Eastern Rite blogs (I assume there are some) and drop my Latin Rite comments and tell you what I think?

ByzRus said...

TJM,

In order:

1) I do not owe you an explanation.

2) There are some, but I do encourage you to try the Orthodox ones. I'll actually recommend one I follow if you'd like. You won't last long - those folks are pretty rabid. If you hit the Catholic ones, suggest you drop the "Rite" moniker before you do. We're actual churches.

3) I'm right here, drop away.

4) You act like a "you're either for me, or against me" brat, you get haughty at honestly reasonable discourse that doesn't align with your world view then, you have the absolute gall to again slander a priest in good standing (see TJM, 7:29) with remarks that are nothing but blow. Who do you think you are?

TJM said...

ByzRus,

Maybe if that “priest” would stop slandering other people, we could declare a cease fire. For some reason you ignore his nasty comments like TJM has a disability and you may tell him where to go. You are selective in your outrage

Jerome Merwick said...

TJM,

More often than not, I tend to agree with you, but ByzRus has a point about Father Kavanaugh. There is an old saying that a man must never strike a woman. We owe a similar, albeit more "sacred" courtesy to any priests we come in contact with. Attacking a priest physically is an act of sacrilege. Ridiculing and mocking ordained priests is also a sacrilege.

Which reminds me--I need to get to Confession. It is very hard sometimes to stay engaged on this blog and NOT break that boundary. I fear that I have--more than once.

That protection might seem unfair to some of us, but like it or not, it's there and we have to abide by it.

ByzRus said...

TJM,

YOU started it years ago with questions regarding legitimacy of his priesthood, "left wing loon", voting democrat etc. I always stand up for the little guy though, I have no idea what his stature might be in any way.

So, I'm waiting. Go ahead, pick on me. Criticize the Eastern Churches (let's make this easier, just "Google" Byzantine Catholic", go to Images, then, make up some stuff). Let's do this already.

TJM said...

ByzRus,

Fr K sides with the Deep State first, the Church last. I guess you cannot see that.

Jerome Merwick,

The priest is no longer "the big man on campus." They did this to themselves. I respect priests who are priests first, politicians last.

ByzRus said...

TJM

First, you have no idea what I see and don't see. Second, no one asked for a judgment from you. Third, it's not your place to judge publicly Fr. MJK, or Mark Thomas, among others. Consider arguing constructively with those with whom you disagree. Last, you always have to get the last word in - always that last dig/barb. Very telling..... If you do this here as an anonymous keyboard warrior.... And you want apologizes and a "cease fire"?

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Byz - Maybe you could get TJM to tell us who/what the "Deep State" is and then I might be able to own up to siding with them/it?

I'll need the Deep State's email address, working phone number, postal address, and a list of members.

Then I might be able to get the secret decoder ring that, apparently, one must have to pursue membership.

Do you think there's any connection between the Deep State and deep dish pizza? 'Cause, if there is, I want no part of their shenanigans, political or pie related! *<|:-)

ByzRus said...

Fr. MJK, Despite being a thin-crust guy, I'll take the deep dish and leave the conspiracy theories, deep state and decoder rings to the imaginations of others, particularly those who are insufferable with their persistence.