Friday, July 8, 2022


 We need to recover the sentiments of this famous coffee mug which the famous person who created it sent to me and I just drunk my morning coffee from, twice:


TJM said...

Father McDonald,

I respectfully disagree. There is no reason for young clergy not to say the TLM. I know that you benefitted from learning to celebrate it. Unless you learn to celebrate the TLM there is much learning to be lost. It is hypocrisy on steroids that PF and his minions are trying to suppress the TLM. It should be a legitimate Rite and many bishops have simply ignored Traditionis Crudelis (Custodes) for good reason. The Novus Ordo Church is one big demographic sinkhole!

However, maybe traditionalists should take a page from the Cupich's of this world and simply do to the OF what they want, like restoring the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar for starters and the Offertory Prayers from the TLM. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Although over time I had little respect for PF, his cruel and uncharitable TC put me over the edge. Basta!

ByzRus said...

Agree as you are simply suggesting a cease-fire regarding whining, not celebrating.

Agree on the current missal where, options abound.

TJM said...


It sounds like Father McDonald is suggesting abandoning the religiously effective Missal, that of 1962. It is not a cease-fire but a surrender.

ByzRus said...



The Byzantine Ruthenians, along with the Ukrainians and Russians have several liturgies. In my particular Church, we use the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom mostly and during the Sundays of the Great Fast, the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, among a few other days. I believe the Russian Church still uses the Divine Liturgy of St. James on certain days, I believe feasts. My point? We have 3 liturgies that depending upon jurisdiction that coexist peacefully and seamlessly. I thought Benedict XVI taught that the two missals coexisted both peacefully and similarly. I suppose they don't as the current occupant of the throne has now set the precedent of volleying from one norm to the other. Seems that one of the better theologians that, fortunately, lived during my lifetime was wrong. The aforementioned is clearly above my paygrade.

That said, the normative form of mass isn't liked and/or loved by many/most else we would not have had 50+ years of ruminating over it, its celebration and how the church building within which it is celebrated is to be arranged and adorned. It is, in my humble opinion, too submissive to the "perceived needs of our time", social/cultural change and anything else that which is supposedly timeless should be immune. The Roman Church, in my humble opinion, is too subservient to "style" and too undisciplined to re-read the VII docs and implement them as was likely intended to start reaping those proverbial "fruits" and "vibrancy".

TJM said...


Excellent background for us Latins and a great perspective. My jaundiced opinion is that the liberal wing foisted a substandard product on the laity and are angry so many do not agree with their views. One of my favorite commenters here, Father Fox, makes the same point as you do that “nobody likes the Novus Ordo because they keep trying to change it” so you are in good company!

ByzRus said...


A point of clarity regarding my previous comment @3:38 pm.

The distinction between the Eastern Byzantine Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, and the Roman Church is participation. In the East, the various liturgies are normative and celebrated on days where it is appropriate to do so. None are options. In the Latin Church, the two forms of mass are options with both clergy and laity determining the extent to which they wish to participate or not. THAT, to me is the problem. IF, as Benedict XVI had loosely intended, Mass according the the '62 missal was offered in every parish, perhaps it wouldn't be as significant of a problem. However, to the extent this would have occurred, the laity would still have retained the option of attending one or the other, not both to fulfill their attendance obligation (i.e. I cannot foresee a situation where only mass according to the '62 missal would be offered on the Feast of the Assumption, for example). Also, and probably in most places, the Triduum would default to the Novus Ordo as both a practical matter, to not violate liturgical norms/laws regarding how many Easter Vigil masses are celebrated in a particular parish and as a point of unity.

I honestly do not see a viable solution here as much as I would like there to be one. The NO is normative, it should be celebrated as the Council intended, in many places it is not, the aberrations that have crept in are too engrained so many years on, and many within the presbyterate and episcopacy are too undisciplined, or, apathetic to address their own real or perceived ars celebrandi shortcomings.

TJM said...


The demographic sinkhole and the tradition minded younger clergy will bring about the restoration of the Roman Mass. If you do not look at The New Liturgical Movement website. It clearly shows this trend. These geriatric meanies have lost the argument.

The demographic sinkhole is on full display in Cupich’s Chicago. A magnificent church, St. Adalbert, designed to resemble St. Paul’s Outside the Walls, was once the center of a vibrant Polish neighborhood. Over time the Poles left and the neighborhood became Hispanic. The Church has closed due to lack of parishioners and funds - yet it is in the very center of a vibrant, Hispanic neighborhood! They have voted with their feet. Now maybe if traditional liturgy had been there and the pastor promoted religious processions which are customary in the Hispanic world the parish might have made it. Instead it was home to the typical “Novus Ordo R Us” masses and the parish went by by. In start contrast, St. John Cantius by offering both the EF and a Latin OF with outstanding music is a dynamic parish which on the feast of Corpus Christi, was standing room only.

TJM said...

Father McDonald,

You may want to consider this comment from a writer over at Rorate Caeli. From this person's perspective the TLM is on the upswing no matter what the Roche in Rome has to say:

"The old Mass has gained a remarkable momentum of its own at the local levels. In Germany, the traditionalists experienced this year what seemed unthinkable for decades: Bishop Bertram Meier of Augsburg himself ordained the candidates of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, demonstratively backing the community. In France, too, the faithful vote with their feet: the traditional Pentecost pilgrimage of the young traditionalists from Paris to Chartres counted more participants than ever. The local bishop did not miss the opportunity to accompany the young pilgrims for one stage of the journey. In the meantime, a daughter movement has been established in Spain, which goes on pilgrimage from Oviedo to the Marian shrine of Covadonga.

The classical Roman rite is neither dead nor threatened in its existence; rather, only the axis is shifting. The vitality of the traditionalist movement is fed more than ever from the local churches; less from Rome. This development makes it a synodal factor par excellence."

Jerome Merwick said...


It is often the case that one can measure success by the desperation of their opponents. In the Church's case, the nearly rabid overreaction to the success of the older rite is a transparent indicator of just how scared the deadchurch leaders are.

In short, those who support the traditional Mass have already won. We're just a few heart attacks away from total victory.

John Nolan said...

Every autumn the Young Catholic Adults hold a weekend retreat at Douai Abbey in the south of England, although there was a hiatus in 2020 and 2021 as a result of COVID. A group of us not-so-young Catholic adults from the Schola Gregoriana of Cambridge help out with the chant. Mass and Vespers are in the older form.

When I was their age (1970s) such opportunities did not exist.