Mark Thomas points out the obvious in a comment from John Allen's reports on a Dallas event with Ivereigh and Douthat:
"For instance, Ivereigh began by laying out his standard assessment of what the election of Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio in March 2013 meant, saying it was a badly needed shock to a Church that had become sclerotic, focused excessively on itself, and so rule-obsessed that the world only knew what Catholicism was against rather than what it’s for."
In 2013 A.D., obsession with rules marked the Church? The Church in 2013 A.D. was focused on Herself excessively? The world only knew what Catholicism was against rather than what it’s for?
That doesn't correspond to my recollection. From the 1960s to 2013 A.D. (and beyond), one parish after another offered ad lib Masses, tolerated dissent from Church teaching, and in line with Rome, had opened to the world.
The reality is that decades prior to 2013 A.D., the image of pray, pay, and obey rule-obsessed Catholicism had been shattered.
In 2013 A.D, Austen Ivereigh and I belonged to two very different Churches.
My comments:
From 1965 through the 1980's all we ever heard about was Vatican II, this, that and the other and we had to be obedient to Vatican II! That is a false idol to say the least.
No we have to be obedient to Almighty God and the Deposit of Faith contained in Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
And guess what? The Deposit of Faith in out in the open for all to discover. It is not confined to an elite group of people, be they the pope, bishops or theologians, let alone priests and nuns or "nones" today.
For the past 50 years we have been self-absorbed with "reform" and "social work." The Lord Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament was dethroned in most parish churches, the Liturgy became a hand-holding let's look at one another self absorbed celebration and fellowship became a new sacrament more important than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. And creativity had to be of the Holy Spirit because it came from a committee of people who decided this, that or the other in collective hand holdIng prayer.
And folks, in 2018 we are returning to that self-absorbed 1960's me generation that masked itself with protests, concern for those on the margins and the like.
17 comments:
"For the past 50 years we have been self-absorbed with "reform" and "social work." The Lord Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament was dethroned in most parish churches, the Liturgy became a hand-holding let's look at one another self absorbed celebration and fellowship became a new sacrament more important than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. And creativity had to be of the Holy Spirit because it came from a committee of people who decided this, that or the other in collective hand holdIng prayer.
Caricature, therefore, unhelpful.
Misdiagnose the malady, misunderstand the cure.
Kavanaugh at 8:35,
Actually the statement is spot on. What alternate universe of reality are you living on?
Anonymous 8:35-
"Caricature"? Have you been hiding under the pews in Novus Ordo establishments for the past many years?
The "caricature" is still happening under the guise of that neo-modernist idol worship (V2) in Novus Ordo establishments. And by "establishments" I mean meeting halls where the Blessed Sacrament has been relegated to holes in the wall, or some separate bland inconspicuous spaces, or just ignored.
After one has been attending only the TLM or Eastern Rites for a long time, and then go, normally forced to do so, to a Novus Ordo establishment even just once, one wonders if the latter is Catholic, even resembling more a mainline Lutheran liturgy. I can just imagine how faithful Catholics in the late 1960's felt, their faith being shattered by the hierarchy and ivory tower intellectually blind ideologues, and eventually acting with their feet, confused and wounded.
In this connection, I was surprised to learn that Christianity is actually growing in USA, but it ain't in the so-called mainline churches. People want substance and guidance in their lives not the vague lovey-dovey fellowship feelings of neo-Modernist establishments like so many Catholic churches in USA today. One hardly hears the words "sin" or "sinner" there, and confessionals are considered a thing of the past, since everyone, for them, it seems, will be saved anyways. Did your Novus Ordo church yesterday point out that the groans of death are all around you in the first words of the Introit, and that you need God's help to escape the death of sin? That is what the 3 gesima Sundays are about, that God in His mercy has given sinners a way out of death, just as He did not abandon Adam, Noah, and Abraham, the 3 Fathers of mankind in the Old Testament.
Anyways:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/new-harvard-research-says-u-s-christianity-not-shrinking-growing-stronger/
Caricature: "neo-modernist idol worship"
The Harvard study notes: "The folks at Pew have been reporting for years that while the mainline churches are in drastic free fall, the group that “shows the most significant growth is the nondenominational family.” Of course, these nondenominational churches are 99.9 percent thorough-blooded evangelical."
I would suspect many of these non-denominational churches may - may - be akin to the prosperity Gospel temples where faith is linked inextricably to wealth, beauty, and worldly comforts, and the Politically conservative type such as the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio overseen by the Hagee family. Or they may be of the Lakewood Church variety led by Joel Osteen.
The Harvard study further notes, "Pew also notes that “evangelical Protestantism and the historically black Protestant tradition have been more stable” over the years, with even a slight uptick in the last decade because many congregants leaving the mainline churches are migrating to evangelical churches that hold fast to the fundamentals of the Christian faith."
I am not sure that the Harvard study of the Federalist author Glenn Stanton mean when they refer to "the fundamentals of the Christian faith." Our Catholic Tradition would have many areas of agreement with the evangelical churches, but there would also be some significant concepts that would not be common to both, such as sacraments, hierarchical structure, individual biblical interpretation vs magisterial teaching authority, etc.
I couldn't have said it better myself. And, Mark Thomas. Come home. Are you out there?
First, we had VII. Then, we worshiped VII. Now, we started to canonize VII.
For the love of St. Peter and all that is holy, I wish someone would have the basically unnecessary VIII just so I could face the rest of my life and eternity without ever hearing VII again! Failed ideology that sat the church down. Hopefully, this papacy does some good in terms of spotlighting how dysfunctional the church has become and how borderline mental this this obsession is. As a child, endlessly, it was drummed into our heads love, love, love, love, love and how great the council was for all the good things it brought. As a young person who knew little, I dared once to innocently bring up how different things were at my grandmother's parish (after returning home from a visit) and how, despite it being mid/later 70s, mass was still celebrated ad orientem (I was totally blown away the first time I saw that and vividly remember it to this day). Anyhow, you would have sworn I pronounced heresy. The teachers were angry, believe it or not, "We don't do that anymore!, "That's wrong!" etc. Reflecting on it now, these folks were so completely brainwashed.
And, Father MJK, how can you say that with the turmoil, unnecessary destruction of thousands of churches and the seemingly endless liturgical anomalies that characterized that era?
Victor, you are 100% right.
On the occasion that I do attend the Novus Ordo, it is culture shock. Between the goofy hymns (Morning Has Broken, really??), sometimes bad vestments, boys and girls in ill-fitting (generally, way to short on the boys) gender neutral albs (because that's really going to fill the seminaries and convents), homilies that invariably have some irritating social justice overtone, the legion of extraordinary ministers sanitizing on the way up to the altar and then, other than in the hand, they have no idea how to distribute holy communion, the sign of peace that has all but been turned into a sacrament, overly dramatic cantors who should be heard, not seen, to mw, it has become off-putting.
Perhaps the following quote--from Eamon Duffy's "Fires of Faith"--is not entirely irrelevant here. His description of the "stripping of the altars" under Edward VI (son of Henry VIII) certainly evocative for those of us who lived through the eerily similar protestantization of the 1960s/70s.
“In five years, Edward's regime had bulldozed away centuries of devotional elaboration, and had stripped bare the cathedrals and parish churches of England. The most devastating impact had probably been in music, since the heavy emphasis of reformed protestantism on the intelligibility of the written or spoken word in worship left no place for Latin word-setting word-setting and elaborate polyphony. The entire repertoire of sacred music from late antiquity to the recent past, therefore, had been swept aside as redundant in a matter of months. But, after music, it was architecture and its attendant arts – paintings, statuary, stained glass – that suffered most. Virtually all the altars had been pulled down, their consecrated table-slabs or mensae often deliberately broken up, or profaned by use as paving, bridge components, walling or hearthstones. . . . . . the hammers had been out everywhere – at Worcester, a representative case, Dean Barlow razed the high altar to the ground in August 1552, at the same time removing the medieval choir screens. By the end of that month the organ had gone too. The great crucifixes that had dominated every church in the land had been ritually burned by the Edwardine visitors; every accessible niche had been emptied of its saint; wall and panel paintings were scraped or whitewashed over. Acres of stained glass had been smashed or sold off and, when left in place, as perhaps they mostly were, the faces of sacred persons and the more overtly catholic iconography might be daubed out with paint or whitewash. . . . The vestments, vessels, books and music needed for catholic worship were outlawed, dispersed and (mostly) destroyed.”
Caricatures: "Between the goofy hymns (Morning Has Broken, really??), sometimes bad vestments, boys and girls in ill-fitting (generally, way to short on the boys) gender neutral albs (because that's really going to fill the seminaries and convents), homilies that invariably have some irritating social justice overtone, the legion of extraordinary ministers sanitizing on the way up to the altar and then, other than in the hand, they have no idea how to distribute holy communion, the sign of peace that has all but been turned into a sacrament, overly dramatic cantors who should be heard, not seen..."
Bee here:
I agree with ByzRC and Victor: attending a typical Novo Ordo Mass now, after I have been attending the EF Mass for the last 5 years or so, really is a strange experience.
Last Sunday, due to my schedule, I attended a Mass said by a DePaul University priest (not sure if he is a professor or on staff there, but he was a priest in about his late 60's). At this particular Mass he did the typical oh-so-modern-and-hip-priest-gig (even though he's an old fogey now - I bet he still thinks he's 30. :-), Good Morning Everybody introduction, and since there was no entrance music, made comments as to his singing voice being so poor, were he to sing perhaps pigs from miles around (in Chicago?) would come running (ha, ha, ha, Father...love the image of pigs in church to open the Mass. So nice.)
He ended up reading the wrong Gospel, and then told us the reading was not the one he'd prepared a homily for, but no matter, it still fit. The homily was actually quite good.
At the consecration I was scandalized, because when he pronounced the words "This is My Body" he lifted the host with one hand, like he was showing a pamphlet or paper to the congregation, flipping it up and putting it immediately down. If you blinked you would have missed it. He did the same with the chalice. Ei yi yi!
He also invited everyone to say some of the prayers only the priest says, "Through Him, With Him, In Him..." and "Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your Apostles; Peace I leave you, my peace I give you; look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church,..."
Not the best prayer day, but it did give me a chance to appreciate the priests at St. John Cantius, and how reverently and devotedly they say even the Novo Ordo Mass.
But even when a Novo Ordo Mass is well said now, somehow to me it lacks the weight and gravitas that seem a part of the EF Mass. When I attend an EF Mass, it is like I am in the company of serious heavyweights pray-ers. When I'm at the Novo Ordo Mass, it can seem like a watered down Mass-lite.
It's like the difference between professional and amateur anythings. Quality.
God sure puts up with a lot with us human bein's.
God bless.
Bee
Fr. MJK/Anonymous:
From the Oxford Dictionaries (as I figured John would approve)
Caricature
A picture, description, or imitation of a person in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.
‘a crude caricature of the Prime Minister’
mass noun ‘there are elements of caricature in the portrayal of the hero’
Where is the exaggeration with what I wrote? It's all based on experience that, no doubt, is shared in many, many NO parishes throughout the country and world.
Are these caricature? It certainly is comic and, I suppose grotesque in parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUAtIZ0Kw50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ5KbCuox3g&index=12&list=PLITlW7t_3O1SKbSSBQ4_t8tY___-Xaja8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xczBz2lIGQQ
My apologies. I guess we're just imaging things here.
Bee,
So sorry you had to put up with this juvenile delinquent priest who is clearly committing grave sin and should be removed from public ministry.
When one lumps all NO Masses and celebrants into one "neo-modernist" bunch, it is a caricature.
Caricature: "gender neutral albs." ALL albs are gender neutral.
Caricature: homilies with "irritating social justice overtones." One hopes no homilist within earshot of you ever has to preach on James Chapter 5, verse 4: "Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts."
He might cite THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH and irritate you even more 2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice. In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.
Why not say, "Homilies that invariably touch on things I don't care to hear because they challenge me in ways I find discomforting" and be done with it?
Anonymous -
Turn down your jets of sanctimony.
If we put on our thinking caps, we'll remember that male altar servers historically wore cassock and surplice. The obvious benefit, getting young men to in part, put on the clothes of the priest - e.g. get them thinking about a vocation that might just be buried deep within waiting for some spark to bring it out. Question: If in the Roman Church, the priesthood and minor/major orders were limited to men, despite the tag in the back not being labeled with "M", who 50 years ago would have thought of young women donning this garment? We've now reduced the alb to gender neutral and mostly ill fitting attire for young adults! I forgot the piece of colored yarn that now plays the part of a cincture.
"Why not say, "Homilies that invariably touch on things I don't care to hear because they challenge me in ways I find discomforting" and be done with it?"
Don't assume that's what I'm asking and, don't assume I'm witholding anything either. To help you understand the dangers of assuming (with less emphasis on me):
The word Assume comes from the latin words ass, u and me, and, according to ancient scholars, its meaning, roughly translated is "to make an ass out of u and me". Popular idioms have lent to the idea of capitalization of some of these words, to draw greater emphasis towards them. For example, it is sometimes spelled as ASSume, to emphasize the importance of the word "ass" in the equation.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Assume
Despite your weak, wearying and smarmy attempt at being omniscient, I and others are pretty good at following Canon 1262.
Can. 1262 The faithful are to give support to the Church by responding to appeals and according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops.
As for voting, I do and then, in line with the Church's expectations of me as a Catholic.
Anonymous:
One other thing:
"When one lumps all NO Masses and celebrants into one "neo-modernist" bunch, it is a caricature."
Be assured that I/we are not so oblivious as to think that all NO Masses and celebrants should be so lumped. Of course there are anomalies such as St. John Cantius, EWTN, Fr. AJM when he was at his cathedral in Macon along with other beacons of light dotted here and there. These are exceptions, by no means are they the norm.
How about leading a discussion for once instead of lying in wait to provide unsolicited pompous corrections because we all don't feel the need to continually restate the obvious?
And now, I'll sit back and anxiously await the comeback.
Corrections are not pompous. They're just corrections.
Why are they offered? YOU ASKED FOR THEM. And I quote: "Where is the exaggeration with what I wrote?"
Cassocks and surplices are also gender neutral. BUT YOU DIDN'T MENTION THEM. And I quote again:"...boys and girls in ill-fitting (generally, way to short on the boys) gender neutral albs..."
And now I'll sit back...
Cassocks and surplices are also gender neutral. BUT YOU DIDN'T MENTION THEM.
See 119
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-4.cfm
Read This
https://catholicexchange.com/can-women-wear-cassocks
While not expressly forbidden, it is implied that men/boys and women/girls serving a liturgical function should appear as equals and the means to that end is the preferred alb and cincture. Additionally, nothing should be worn that would confuse the faithful as to the role of an individual so, again, while not expressly forbidden, the preferred way of vesting is the alb and cincture.
So, we can conclude that in the Roman Church (which I specifically mentioned in the above) that the cassock and surplice is really intended for priests and those whose path might lead them that way.
I haven't more time to spend on your corrections and things that most can and would reasearch themselves. This is a blog. It is a discussion. Proof reading is not necessary here. Let us now stop wasting our respective time.
Well, you did say gender neutral ALBS...
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