The photo above is of my “then” bishop, Bishop Raymond W. Lessard, consecrating (or was he???) the Most Holy Eucharist at my Diaconate Ordination at Saint Mary Seminary and University, Roland Park, Baltimore, Maryland. He was invited by the seminary to be the ordaining bishop. It was November 18, 1979.
With maybe a few exceptions, every Mass there used homemade bread, made by a few seminarians. This “bread” was like a honey-bun and quite good, but chewy! Often, to me, it did not seem thoroughly cooked as the inside was kind of gooey.
This “bread” was made with wholewheat, honey, salt and God only knows what else, maybe vanilla.
The Archbishop of Kansas City recently warned priests about what kind of wine they use for Holy Mass and that some of what some priests are using for wine is causing the Mass to be invalid as are the consecrations. (Although, might the Host be validly consecrated while the wine isn’t???)
That is shocking news.
My question is: Can the ordination part of a Mass be valid, although the Liturgy of the Eucharist is not because of invalid matter?
8 comments:
Ecclesia supplet
There has been some good, solid commentary in a few places from well-educated sources on this "warning." The archbishop's letter does make the issue seem very cut-and-dried, but there is room for nuance in the Vatican directives and the application thereof.
This is why, in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church, rubrics are followed faithfully and without exception. Our priests take this very seriously. No one has ever had such questions regarding validity that I am aware of.
My question is: Can the ordination part of a Mass be valid, although the Liturgy of the Eucharist is not because of invalid matter? I suppose if rubrics aren't followed faithfully, anything is possible.
Was I a validly ordained deacon in 1979, and if not, does that then invalidate my 1980 Ordination to the Priesthood? I know you are just musing, Fr. AJM, but, at the same time, your questions are very valid where the RCC was behaving like an amoeba during that era. Also, there isn't a do-over component regarding someone who is now retired. What would have to happen for you or any other priest who for one reason or another, has similar questions/concerns? You'd need an expert ecclesiastical opinion, an exacting recount of the events regarding your ascent to the major orders and as many photos as possible, I would think. If you are truly troubled, what would another priest say? Be still your soul and put your mind to rest believing what you believe yourself to be?
THIS did happen, somewhere in the last 10 years. I think the priest flubbed the baptismal rite thereby invalidating all. Whatever he did that was wrong, really poor formation? What an absolute mess trying to find people, do it over and realign their sacramental lives.
I don't think Ecclesia Supplet applies with invalidity, but allowances in governance of law.
I wouldn't think too hard about this - Christ probably used barley bread at the Last Supper. Bread is bread, wine is wine (certainly not endorsing going beyond the law).
Oh - I dont think the Sacrament of Holy Orders is reliant on the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The matter and form for each are entirely different and not interrelated in terms of sacramental theology. If a bishop ordained you with laying on of hands and prayer of ordination, but then used ritz crackers and strawberry wine at mass, you're still a validly ordained priest. :)
If interested, one can read about Ecclesia supplet here:
https://adoremus.org/2020/11/q-at-times-in-situations-where-the-validity-of-a-sacrament-is-questioned-such-as-in-the-recent-cases-of-the-invalid-baptisms-of-certain-priests-some-claim-that-ecclesia-supplet-takes/
I can't see why an ordination (sacrament) would be invalidated because of the eucharist (separate sacrament) being illicitly celebrated, if not outright invalid. Though holy orders is conferred within the bookends of the eucharist, wouldn't consideration of the sacramental action need to be considered separately? Can ordinations occur outside of mass? What if such an ordination were to occur "underground", during a time of war etc. where such a celebration isn't possible.
I agree Justin motes and ByzRus in that your ordination was valid Father McDonald.
Whatever made from, wheat or barley,it is unleavened bread that is eaten at the Passover meal and unleavened bread is what Christ used at the Last Supper. There is a certain meaning and significance for using it both back then and today at our Mass.
Stupid times, stupid times
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