Pope’s Restrictions Spark Resurgence of Interest in Traditional Mass Among Youth
Two French Catholic writers analyze how Traditionis Custodes is fueling a Traditional Mass movement among young Catholics
This is an interesting article from Edward Pentin, because it quotes two progressive Catholic periodicals about how the TLM is growing despite Pope Francis’ backwardism about it to the time prior to Pope St. John Paul II easing of restrictions and Pope Benedict’s progressive liberalization of its celebration:
Here is a money byte from the article:
PARIS — The authors of two articles published in the progressive French Catholic daily La Croix have drawn attention to how Pope Francis’ restrictions on the Traditional Latin Mass have fueled a growth in support for the ancient liturgy among young Catholics, producing the opposite effect to what was intended and posing a dilemma for bishops and for Rome.
In a June 4 article headlined “Young Trads: ‘Bishops Must Seek a New Balance,’” French Catholic historian Christophe Dickès recalled a video, made soon after Pope Francis imposed sweeping restrictions on the Traditional Latin Mass with his July 2021 motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, in which a group of young French Catholics made clear their love for the old form of the Mass was not ideological.
They were not “grumpy, old fashioned, and even less, separatist,” Dickès observed, but were instead attached to the traditional rite because of its “transcendence, its verticality, and its orientation towards the East.” There was no desire to dissent, he said, but rather they addressed the Pope, saying: “We are your sheep.”
49 comments:
He’s out to lunch - a mean spirited tyrant, hardly a shepherd
The article stated that among young Catholics who, following the issuance of Traditionis Custodes, have expressed interest in the TLM:
"They were not “grumpy, old fashioned, and even less, separatist,” Dickès observed, but were instead attached to the traditional rite because of its “transcendence, its verticality, and its orientation towards the East.”
"There was no desire to dissent, he said, but rather they addressed the Pope, saying: “We are your sheep.”
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That is great news as prior to the issuance of Traditiones Custodes, more than a few "traditionalist" folks had made clear their "desire to dissent."
Pope Francis characterized Traditiones Custodes as a reworking of Summorum Pontificum. In turn, perhaps the new wave of young Catholics who have discovered the TLM will distance themselves from the dissent that has long plagued the TLM movement.
Unlike more than a few among their predecessors, it is great to hear young Catholics who are new to the TLM movement declare that they are not dissenters. Instead, they "addressed the Pope, saying: “We are your sheep.”
That is important as, in 2021 A.D., Archbishop J. Augustine Di Noia had noted:
VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis’ letter explaining why he was restricting the use of the pre-Vatican II Mass “fearlessly hits the nail on the head: the TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) movement has hijacked the initiatives of St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI to its own ends,” said Archbishop J. Augustine Di Noia, who insisted he was speaking as a theologian and not as a Vatican official.
"The archbishop, a Dominican, had served as secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments, was deeply involved in the Vatican’s dialogue with the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X and currently is adjunct secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
"...the archbishop said, “what we have got now is a movement within the church herself, seemingly endorsed by her leaders, that sows division by undermining the reforms of the Second Vatican Council through the rejection of the most important of them: the reform of the Roman Rite.”
Pax.
Mark Thomas
In 2022 A.D., Father Davide Pagliarani, Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X, issued several amazing remarks in regard to Summorum Pontificum, as well as Traditiones Custodes.
Father Pagliarani had insisted that:
-- Summorum Pontificum was a very flawed document.
-- Summorum Pontificum was unsustainable.
-- Summorum Pontificum, contrary to its goal to promote unity and peace within the Church, had led "many priests...to question their priesthood, and to question the Council and the New Mass."
-- Given Summorum Pontificum's flawed nature, and having fueled dissension in regard to Vatican II, as well as the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, the issuance of Traditiones Custodes was inevitable, according to the SSPX's Superior General.
In light of the above, if we believe Father Pagliarani, SSPX Superior General, then he is correct in that the issuance of Traditiones Custodes was inevitable.
Poor Pope Francis inherited an horrific situation in regard to Summorum Pontificum.
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Father Pagliarani, SSPX Superior General:
"With Summorum Pontificum, the Tridentine Mass was then granted a much wider right. This allowed a certain number of priests to discover it; and by celebrating it – it must be acknowledged – many priests began to question their priesthood, and to question the Council and the New Mass.
"It is precisely this process that frightened the Vatican.
"However, the perspective of this motu proprio, which remained flawed, was based on an error: two forms of the same rite of Mass, and above all, I would like to add, the illusion of improving something in the current crisis without discussing the causes of the crisis.
"This was the error of Pope Benedict XVI and the limitations of this motu proprio: it just could not work.
"It could work for a while, but sooner or later it would lead to what has happened."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Authenticity is the loadstone rock for, really, all ages and unto the ages of ages.
"The authors of two articles published in the progressive French Catholic daily La Croix have drawn attention to how Pope Francis’ restrictions on the Traditional Latin Mass have fueled a growth in support for the ancient liturgy among young Catholics, producing the opposite effect to what was intended and posing a dilemma for bishops and for Rome."
================================================
Pope Francis has sought to overcome the dissension/disunity that certain traditionalist Catholics have unleashed via their misrepresentation of Summorum Pontificum. Said folks have waged war against Vatican II, the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as the Pope.
In that sense, Pope Francis achieved his desire in question as the article noted that "a group of young French Catholics made clear their love for the old form of the Mass was not ideological."
"They were not “grumpy, old fashioned, and even less, separatist...but were instead attached to the traditional rite because of its “transcendence, its verticality, and its orientation towards the East.”
"There was no desire to dissent, he said, but rather they addressed the Pope, saying: “We are your sheep.”
That is a great beginning for those who wish to demonstrate that a new TLM movement, free of dissent against the Magisterium, is in the offing.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
You are free to post your delusional rantings but the disunity in the Church is primarily the work of leftists like you. When the pope deals with Gerrmay, the priest in Italy celebrating “Mass” in a bathing suit on a float and disciplines the Vatican clerics engaged in a cocaine fueled gay sex orgy, I’ll take him seriously. Facts are pesky things because they expose the falsehoods of this papacy you continue to ignore
Mark, i hope your remarks above are at least tongue in cheek or intentionally ironic. I also hope you don’t employ the same contemptuous stereotyping of other groups. Just to be sure I recommend refraining from using the phrases “you people”, “some of my best friends are…”, and “Jesuit” lest you be confused for a bigot or idiot.
Hey Marky,
Of course I've never been a priest; and of course I'll never get to hear your confession....but imagining I was: your penance from me to you would be tougher than 5 our Fathers and 50 Hail Mary's etc ..it, your penance would be : for every hour spent online and Catholic blogs etc...over 2 years you, Marky, must match an equal hour either out in the sun reading the NT Bible or Psalms and or talking to a fellow Christian brother face to face over beers or coffee...
Now! Go and sin no more!
Marc:
I repeat my offer -- from a prior thread -- inviting you to produce actual examples of so-called traditionalists that are dissenters et alia, as you indict them; and I will pay a bounty of $100 for each submission...
But...
You will pay me $1 for every counter example I offer of traditionalists who are faithful...
And if you want to say, oh I don't want money, then...
I propose that the money all go to a charity we can both agree on.
You didn't respond to my offer before. Why not? If the situation is as grave as you claim, you will generate LOTS of money for charity, from me, not you.
Why would you decline this offer?
It is amazing how you continually accuse fellow Catholics of being terrible people, lacking in charity, yet you cannot even manage to show me a modicum of respect, namely, at least offering some response. Not hypothetical, but very real.
My offer is sincere: I'm proposing it as a way to test your repeated hypothesis of a grave problem of "traditionalist" dissent and misbehavior. Let's see if the numbers bear out; and I'm using $$$ to make the work worth doing, and very transparently, to separate easy-to-make allegations from demostrable ones.
At least pay me the courtesy of explaining what you think is so terrible about my proposal.
Addendum...
I will modify my terms slightly: I will take the money, because I have no qualms accepting payment for the research involved. But if you, Mark, protest you don't want it, then of course, you can give it to charity.
Regarding pipes and cigars, there's a saying, "smoke what you like".
I suppose one could say the same about any papacy, but, wow, this is propaganda on steroids....holy, holy, AD, AD.
Increasingly, I am convinced its an AI bot, not a real person. Maybe include a photo sometime to prove us wrong.
TJM,
I really have nothing to say as an Easterner that, thank fortune, is mostly unaffected by the goings on near the Tiber, but, it's obvious he's a selective shepherd who's totally disconnected from the youth that we're going to rely upon near-term to keep this going. I saw ordination figures somewhere, maybe this blog or Fr. Z and the NO seminaries cannot touch the number of vocations of the traditional seminaries.
New springtime? Hardly. Perhaps a springtime with wildfires and plenty of spectracide weed killer. I have never in all my years been so uninspired except for the Byzantine Church. He's created a dessert. I wish him good luck with that.
Paul,
I say let all have their say as our host chooses to do. I generally try to ignore however, nothing annoys me more than 6 inches of my screen being taken up at any one time with quotations and dashes (that just confuse my somewhat tired +50 y/o eyes) trying to find the pointed comments of others which which I can more easily engage.
I do find the tone and responses to be a mix of unnecessary, not always very nice despite the extreme signaling that would lead one to believe otherwise and social skills that leave me concerned.
I was just talking to a friend who's clergy, minor orders heading to major after getting married. Our priests can be married and at this juncture, a simple majority are. We have real conversation about real issues and challenges - not that we can't accomplish something similar here, but, that's on a personal level. I agree that it would be a very healthy exercise for that commentor to push away from the keyboard and engage real people. Perhaps he does, but, the nature of his candor would certainly lead one to conclude otherwise.
Father Pagliarani, SSPX Superior General:
"With Summorum Pontificum, the Tridentine Mass was then granted a much wider right. This allowed a certain number of priests to discover it; and by celebrating it – it must be acknowledged – many priests began to question their priesthood, and to question the Council and the New Mass.
"It is precisely this process that frightened the Vatican."
===========================================================
That process should have "frightened the Vatican."
Father Pagliarani has validated the following grave concern of Pope Francis: Summorum Pontificum/Pope Benedict XVI has been employed as a battering ram against "the Council and the New Mass."
The notion that attachment to the TLM would lead one to question "the Council and the New Mass" represents the total misrepresentation, and betrayal, of Summorum Pontificum/Pope Benedict XVI, as well as Pope Saint John Paul II's liturgical peace plan.
Nevertheless, Father Pagliarani has insisted in horrific fashion that there is a connection between attachment to the TLM and the questioning of "the Council and the New Mass."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
Father Fox is a very fine priest and commenter here yet you show an extreme lack of respect for him and his offer. In decent society you would be rightfully shunned. Bad form
ByzRus,
Thx again for your words above .
I'll have to be succinct here as it is Sunday morning 10am in .....town.
The latest news in my life is that my young Stepson Alex has managed to get his older girlfriend A... pregnant; 3 months now apparently.
Can I be perhaps a little rude (?) or perhaps a little inappropriate and request some information you may possess:
Ie: what is Eastern Christianity's version or versions of a shotgun wedding?
P.
PS if anyone here can post here a Georgia postal address I will snail mail a postal money order of 50 ....which I believe (for now!!!) is about 37 US dollars - which should purchase, I hope, a half dozen bottles of local quality cooking claret.
I was not so much proud of Alex as a boy when he stood up to school bullies when they'd tease him about either his biological father or me...
"Call him what you @#+%ing want he'd Step in front of a bus or truck for me.. "...as his 12 year old generosity to the poorest boy at his school ...a Serbian migrant boy who was basically fed only some kind of seed soup and had no watch nor bike etc...
Not really a Sunday morning for mourning, credo...
-- I have quoted Father Pagliarani, SSPX Superior General, in regard to his denunciation of Summorum Pontificum.
-- Via that address from which I have quoted, Father Pagliarani also denounced Vatican II as a destructive, error-filled mistake, that the Church must reject.
-- Father Pagliarani also made clear that he/SSPX will continue to wage war against "the New Mass."
Father Pagliarani has shattered the claims of those who have pretended that it is baseless to have noted that the TLM movement has been plagued by the above-mentioned destructive attacks/problems.
The SSPX is a powerhouse player within the TLM movement. The SSPX's powerful influence upon the TLM movement extends far beyond the SSPX's boundaries.
Therefore, certain folks here who have denounced me as having misrepresented (supposedly) traditionalist Catholics must keep their mouths sealed shut. Said folks must remain silent in the face of unending attacks/rejections of Summorum Pontificum, Vatican II, as well as "the New Mass."
Said folks must pretend that the above is not a serious problem within the TLM movement.
The article linked in this thread has claimed that young Catholics who have discovered the TLM recently do not oppose Pope Francis. If that is correct, then it may be that said folks
will build a new TLM movement devoid of those who made Traditionis Custodes necessary.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
10pm here, now in Kiama...near the famous coastal blow-hole. Celebrating more new life on the way with now vodka which I haven't drank in many years...
See: "Paul Kelly - How to Make Gravy"
It is rumoured at least some of the lyrics to this Paul Kelly song were written by...
Mark Thomas,
Stop with your endless prevarications and go to confession. You are absolutely unhinged from reality and you owe (unless you are the leftist coward I think you are) Fathers McDonald and Fox an apology. And you neef to put up or shut up on Father Fox’s offer.
Paul,
There is no concept of "shotgun wedding" in the Christian East.
Customarily, candidates are interviewed to ensure they are approaching the sacrament freely. Could they lie attempting to deceive the priest? I suppose anything is possible; and, hopefully, the priest is able to make such a determination when vetting.
That being said, and if their relationship isn't strictly physical, perhaps they will discern their relationship to have some degree of mutual love and respect in addition to discerning the strength that comes from the family unit as well as the numerous benefits children receive from good formation in the home - a little church unto itself. Prayers for them.
Mark:
I will send you the $100 for your citation of Father Pagliarani, per my proposal. Or, to a charity we can both agree on; perhaps the Red Cross? Little Sisters of the Poor?
But...will you agree to send me a $1 for each traditionalist I can cite who is not dissenting or "destructive" or whatever criticism you've leveled?
I'm not going to do the work for free, or worse, if there won't be any follow-through. There has to be a meeting of the minds.
But I'm willing to bet -- literally -- that I'll come out way ahead. You must, I infer, agree, because you're not willing to take the bet, or even negotiate.
That can be taken to mean you suspect I can name close to 100 people, and thus get my $100 back. Or, even name more, and cost you a significant amount of money.
Look, I've made my point, and your refusal to engage only confirms it: namely, that the problem of nutty, dissenting, destructive, so-called traditionalists, which I do not deny, is a very small problem. How small? Well, you could get $100 bounty for each of them, but you won't do it, so that suggests you aren't prepared to name very many.
So: it's a small problem. I think that is settled. And, if you disagree, my offer stands.
Also, I was amused that you said, above, that I should "keep my mouth sealed shut." When people resort to "shut up!" it means they have run out of arguments. (That said, I find offensive your use of the term "denounce"; I haven't denounced you; I've taken you seriously enough to challenge your claims.)
Finally, I don't desire to irritate you or offend you, but I do intend to engage in back-and-forth with you. If you post a claim or an argument, you should not be surprised someone responds and challenges either facts or logic. That's no reason to get upset or be offended. In case you haven't noticed, I don't insult you or call you names. I simply challenge you.
Father Fox,
Mark Thomas is a leftist who supports abortion, gay marriage and the sexual mutilation of children. That is the only explanation I can offer due to his reticence. Of course he is in “fine” company with Father K Orwell who votes for those things. He has yet to provide a “proportionate” reason for supporting intrinsic evil. He obviously failed moral theology and logic! Of course he will respond about the alleged wrongdoing of President Trump while ignoring the sins of the Kennedy’s, Horndog Clintoon and “sniffer” Biden. Such is the decay of the Dems!7&
Father Martin Fox said..."Also, I was amused that you said, above, that I should "keep my mouth sealed shut."
Father Fox, please show me where I said that you should keep your "mouth sealed shut."
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark:
You said:
Therefore, certain folks here who have denounced me as having misrepresented (supposedly) traditionalist Catholics must keep their mouths sealed shut.
Since you so rarely respond to anything I ask you, I inferred you meant this for me. No? I am gratified.
Since I promptly responded to your question to me, would it be so hard, really, for you to respond to my queries to you?
Fr Martin Fox said..."Mark: You said: Therefore, certain folks here who have denounced me as having misrepresented (supposedly) traditionalist Catholics must keep their mouths sealed shut.
Father Fox continued: "Since you so rarely respond to anything I ask you, I inferred you meant this for me. No? I am gratified."
===========================================================
Father Fox, thank you for your reply.
As is clear, I did not state, as you had said, that you should keep your "mouth sealed shut." If anything, I would not direct that comment at a holy priest of God...and I believe that you are God's holy priest.
Father Fox, I hope to move on with you in far more positive fashion.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Father Fox, not that anybody needs my prayers — prayers from a sinful nobody (that's who I am) — but each day, I pray for you, as well as Father McDonald, and Father Kavanaugh.
Father Fox, I hope that you will pray for me. I need your prayers.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark:
Thank you for your kind words and even more, your prayers. I resign myself to you choosing not to respond to my other questions, I do not know why.
That means, Mark, that I am not going to be paying much attention to your comments, because: if you choose not to engage with me in any sort of dialogue, then there's not much point in trying to engage in a one-sided dialogue. If all you will do is post comments with no intention of ever engaging in conversation about them, then why should I take time with that? That's just my take on it.
Father Fox said..."That means, Mark, that I am not going to be paying much attention to your comments, because: if you choose not to engage with me in any sort of dialogue, then there's not much point in trying to engage in a one-sided dialogue."
Father Fox, I am fine with that. I respect your decision.
===============================================================================
Father Fox, you acknowledged that Father Pagliarani, SSPX Superior General, is an example of a dissenting, destructive, traditionalist Catholic.
Be sure to include the bishops and priests of the SSPX in regard to the above.
In line with Father Pagliarani, the Society holds dissenting, destructive views of the Council, Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, and so-called "modernist" Rome.
The SSPX has long exhorted Catholics to avoid priests such as you...as you offer the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
Father Fox, you feed spiritual poison to the Faithful, according to the SSPX. It is you who dissent from authentic Holy Tradition, according to the SSPX. Such is the disgraceful nonsense that the SSPX has long propagated.
We must also recognize that a great many laymen who attend SSPX chapels have attached themselves to SSPX ideology.
Then there are the many folks within the TLM movement who are not attached directly to the SSPX, but view the SSPX as an ally in the destructive "recognize but resist" movement. Said folks favor SSPX ideology.
Then we have New Catholic (Rorate Caeli), Peter Kwasniewski, The Remnant, LifeSite News, Crisis Magazine...on and on...dissenters who enjoy large followings within the TLM movement.
I mean...even some FSSP parishes have welcomed Peter Kwasniewski who, in turn, promoted his mutiny against the Magisterium.
Then there the many prominent traditionalists Catholics who have signed open letters that accused Pope Francis of heresy...open letters that have attacked the Council, as well as Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI.
It is so out of control within the TLM movement that dissension has built against Popes Venerable Pius XII's, as well as Saint Pius X's liturgical reforms.
Father Fox, please do not even think to send me $100 for each traditionalist Catholic who has dissented against the Council, Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as our Popes.
I do not wish to bankrupt you.
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father Fox said..."That means, Mark, that I am not going to be paying much attention to your comments, because: if you choose not to engage with me in any sort of dialogue, then there's not much point in trying to engage in a one-sided dialogue. If all you will do is post comments with no intention of ever engaging in conversation about them, then why should I take time with that? That's just my take on it."
Father Fox, just to conclude...
I will engage those who desire respectful dialogue. I am 100 percent open to that.
That said, not every comment directed at me captures my interest. I do not see the need to respond to those comments.
Father Fox, I do not mean the following in nasty fashion:
I did not respond initially to your proposal about your sending me $100 per dissenting traditionalist Catholic...I send you $1 per non-dissenting traditionalist Catholic...as I was not interested in that .
But when you acknowledged that Father Pagliarani, SSPX Superior General, is a dissenting, destructive, traditionalist Catholic...well, you had weakened your argument greatly in regard to how widespread is dissension among traditionalist Catholics.
The SSPX is a powerhouse, a formidable force, within the TLM movement.
Let us pretend that dissension within the TLM movement is limited just to the SSPX. That alone would constitute a major problem given the SSPX's tremendous influence among traditionalist Catholics.
Beyond that, attacks against Vatican II, the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as "modernist" Rome/Magisterium, represent just a few of the major problems that have plagued the TLM movement.
-- Recall that the TLM movement, established in 1964 A.D. by Father Gommar DePauw, was designed to wage war against the Council, as well as liturgical reform.
-- Archbishop Lefebvre then rode the TLM movement to inform the world that our Vatican II Era Popes, Cardinals, and bishops, were apostates.
-- The SSPX assured us that "modernist" Rome had given us a "bastard" Mass, as well as "bastard" Holy Sacraments.
-- Even Peter Kwasniewski declared:
"While I am an adamant opponent of feminism, I am no less staunch an opponent of chauvinism wherever I see it — and I do see it reappearing in the traditional movement, along with other -isms (e.g., antisemitism, libertarianism, sedevacantism) that are incompatible with Catholic tradition.
"The revival of traditional liturgical practice has permitted the reappearance of some extreme points of view that deserve refutation."
-- Then we have more than a few traditionalist Catholics who have viewed Summorum Pontificum as a muddled, unsustainable, document that Pope Benedict XVI had packed supposedly with errors and lies.
Father Fox, you may wish to believe that all of the above is not held by many folks within the TLM movement. That is your opinion.
I am convinced otherwise.
Father Fox, thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark:
Your approach strikes me as passive-aggressive.
I tried to enter into a conversation with you, but as you say, you are not interested.
You make your points but ignore refutations and anything that holds you accountable.
OK, best wishes, and I don't mean this to sound nasty, but I'm putting you on "ignore."
If you change your mind, say so.
Mark, i would consider myself to be in a ‘hotbed’ of what you call the TLM movement. (It is not monolithic by any description and I don’t know that you could group ‘traditionalists’ in any useful of accurate phylum). The producers of the Mass of the Ages videos are my fellow parishioners, our men’s prayer group prays hard for return to ‘traditional’ ways of worship and we are actively spreading our approach through practical methods, such as support for Knights of Columbus on a national level. Our Altar Rosary Society was very complimentary of St Remy under the leadership of Fr Fox and our priest happily celebrated Requiem Mass there for one of our parishioners. We have parishioners who attend Mass there to meet certain obligations when they can’t travel to Holy Family, and we ALWAYS include prayers for the wellbeing and intention of Pope Francis in our Rosary before Mass or other events. (We still wonder, among ourselves, why daddy beats us). Based or continued growth of our parish the most recent estimate for Fr Fox balance of this contest is ~800 to your one before searching any further.
rcg, thank you for your comment.
I love the TLM. I have been blessed by my diocese's FSSP parish. Although one finds dissenters there.
Perhaps a new wave of young loyal Catholics will replace the many dissenters who have long populated TLM communities...who rejected Summorum Pontificum...who made Traditionis Custodes necessary.
Anyway, rcg, I am thankful that your experience in question has been very positive.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
rcg said..."The producers of the Mass of the Ages videos are my fellow parishioners..."
They did a great job of having smoothed over the radtrad nature of several folks who had participated in said videos.
Here is just one of many such examples: In the Mass of the Ages video 2, at the 7:57 mark, Peter Kwasniewski declared in regard to Sacrosanctum Concilium:
"Although it did have some striking language in it, it mostly comes across as a conservative document, or at least a document that would reassure people. We’re not talking about a radical overhaul of the Catholic Church’s worship. We’re talking about adding a little bit of vernacular here and there. We’re talking about modifying the calendar a little bit."
Conversely, via his Crisis Magazine article entitled Sacrosanctum Concilium: The Ultimate Trojan Horse, Peter Kwasniewski declared:
"Sacrosanctum Concilium is not only not a safe document, it was the greatest Trojan Horse ever introduced into the Church. I know that it’s painful for many good Catholics to admit that it is a corrupt and corrosive document, but we must judge the tree by its fruits."
===============================================================
Peter Kwasniewski's radtrad nature has long been in full swing.
He has assured us that Pope Francis has trafficked in heresy. We must reject the liturgical reforms of Popes Venerable Pius XII, as well as Pius X. Vatican II must be rejected. The Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI is an "imposter" Mass that must be destroyed.
The real Peter Kwasniewski was not presented in The Mass of the Ages video.
Again, the radtrad nature of several folks who had participated in the videos was obscured from view.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
rcg said..."The producers of the Mass of the Ages videos are my fellow parishioners..."
Mike Lewis documented the following in regard to those who appeared in The Mass of the Ages videos. The videos do not present the radical natures of the following:
-- "Eric Sammons (editor of Crisis Magazine): Believes “Pachamama” is responsible for Covid; says we should “move beyond” Vatican II because it was a “failed council”; has asserted, “I believe that ‘Recognize and Resist’ is the only legitimate position for today’s Catholic,” explaining that “to ‘resist’ means to oppose the overall program of Pope Francis.”
-- "Fr. Dave Nix (priest of the Archdiocese of Denver): has praised Corpus Christi Emeritus Bishop Rene Gracida as “a great hero of mine for publicly questioning the valid resignation of Pope Benedict XVI”; attended a “super-charging retreat” with other priests at the home of sedevacantist movie star Mel Gibson in January 2021; now lives as a hermit after a controversy-filled ten years in diocesan ministry."
-- "Joseph Shaw (Una Voce President): coordinator of the “Fillial Correction” of Pope Francis, accusing the pope of advancing seven heresies.
"He has also described as “obviously true” (and not retracted) Archbishop Viganò’s debunked accusations against the pope.
"He thanked a group (which included Peter Kwasniewski) for accusing Pope Francis of heresy.
He accused indigenous Amazonian Catholics of “syncretism” and “paganism”; he has asserted that that disobedience to one’s bishop is really obedience (and the same with the pope)."
-- "Timothy Flanders: Radical traditionalist who has described the current papacy as the “Third Pornocracy,” writing: “Now the Vatican Mafia (which formed into the St. Gallen Mafia in the 1990s) have their man as pope: Jorge Bergoglio. And he has shown himself loyal to his wicked entourage of pornocratic Marxists profaning the name of Catholic.”
Mike Lewis continued:
"This is only a handful of the interviewees and their beliefs.
"In addition to the dangerous ideological views and theological errors of so many of the interview subjects, two other Mass of the Ages interviewees found themselves in the news close to the release of the films they appeared in.
"Fr. James Jackson, FSSP, who is prominently featured in Episode 1, was arrested less than two months after the film was released and faces a federal trial on child pornography charges.
"Dom Alcuin Reid, who is one of the featured interview subjects in Episode 2, was suspended from ministry after he was illicitly ordained to the priesthood in a clandestine ceremony by an unnamed bishop in April."
======================================================================
It is impossible to overlook the serious issues that plague the TLM movement. Even pro-TLM videos that have been sanitized are unable to hide that reality.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark,
On judgement day..
And this applies to me as much to you:
Will any Catholic be greatly rewarded for endless hours on Catholic blogs and websites arguing endlessly like a dog with a bone about such (thinking in terms of centuries) minuscule matters to an audience of perhaps at times a few dozen people?
Mark, some of your above comments are pathetic and ridiculous. I could not bother giving a more detailed response; except to say that for every one piece of dirt you think you've found on any TLM individual or group; any individual with an IQ above room temperature KNOWS a TON more dirt exists in such orders as the Jesuits and Paulists etc in our era - which you largely seem to ignore; and your ignoring this means you have still learnt zero regarding the truth that context is often very important and at times context is almost everything.
But back to our day of Judgement- I at least try, Mark, at times, to focus on whether in my life I actually did my best to feed the poor, visit the sick or those in prison, or use what financial resources I have to spare: to clothe the naked - provide health care and clean drinking water etc...
To finish: Marky, The Catholic blogosphere etc has its place but it is not the realist and most important part of life.
I have no wish to judge harshly or assume too much but if you are one real living human individual with a heart, mind, soul and body I'd recommend regular 3 to 7 days breaks from the internet...
And do something like hiking through national parks, with a group; or even by yourself - I have for almost 15 years found this a great activity not just for physical health; but a great opportunity to pray, reflect on my life etc...
paul said..."Mark, some of your above comments are pathetic and ridiculous. I could not bother giving a more detailed response; except to say that for every one piece of dirt you think you've found on any TLM individual or group; any individual with an IQ above room temperature KNOWS a TON more dirt exists in such orders as the Jesuits and Paulists..."
rcg mentioned the Mass of the Ages videos. I noted simply that the videos sanitized certain radtrads.
But the videos were shrewd in that the viewers were not informed that certain participants have attacked Pope Francis (labeled him a "heretic") regularly...denounced the Council, denounced the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, denounced Pope Venerable Pius XII's liturgical reforms, denounced Pope Saint Pius X's liturgical reforms.
Again, even in sanitized TLM propaganda videos, horrific issues that have long plagued the TLM movement are impossible to hide.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
You've alienated many of the commentors here.
Not sure what you believe you are accomplishing by so doing.
If you are here simply to make speeches without responsibility, your audience is very limited and thinning.
Why not start your own blog? You might then be able to establish the audience you prefer with the visibility you desire. That, to me, seems more productive relative to your views than this particular dynamic. Just a suggestion.
Also, your credibility might increase if, perhaps, you referenced tradition and quoted scripture from time-to-time - the Deposit of Faith mentioned by Fr. AJM a few postings back.
Mark Thomas,
Additionally, you've responded several times over since being engaged by Fr. Fox, yet not to him directly.
Is this passive aggressive? Did his engagement not interest you? Have you provided us with a glimpse into your character that's not particularly palatable? To note: I'm reasonably certain my engagement will not interest you as well.
If, in the depths of your soul you can answer "yes" to any of the above, to me, that's a bit out of line given the shear acreage you tend to occupy on this blog. My suggestion: You may wish to reflect on what you are about, how you present yourself and how you interact with and treat others.
You can have your opinions and spend hours assembling quotations, but if you aren't willing to respond to defend those opinions and be responsible for providing them accurately and with proper context, what's the point?
ByzRus..."Additionally, you've responded several times over since being engaged by Fr. Fox, yet not to him directly. Did his engagement not interest you?"
I responded to Father Fox directly. Father Fox is aware that I am not interested in his proposal.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ByzRus said..."You can have your opinions and spend hours assembling quotations, but if you aren't willing to respond to defend those opinions and be responsible for providing them accurately and with proper context, what's the point?"
There are a few folks I avoid. Said folks traffic in nasty replies.
At least one such person has told one lie after another about me. He has claimed that I am a leftist who hates the TLM (I love the TLM), supports abortion, same-sex unions...utter lies.
Beyond that, I am happy to enter into charitable discussions here.
However, I do not respond to comments that do not interest me. That seems to upset certain folks here.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
Apologies, but, I'm not following your response.
"Beyond that, I am happy to enter into charitable discussions here."
"However, I do not respond to comments that do not interest me. That seems to upset certain folks here."
Are you saying that you are "happy to enter into charitable discussions here", but, not if it "doesn't interest me"?
If you post something, and someone responds/comments/challenges charitably, you'll engage/respond only if it interests you?
ByzRus said..."Mark Thomas, Apologies, but, I'm not following your response."
Sorry, mea culpa.
In regard to Father Fox:
It had been a long time since I had exchanged comments here with Father Fox. Perhaps not since last year. But even prior to the last time in question, I do not recall my having engaged Father Fox in many discussions here.
Anyway, several days ago, Father Fox had proposed to me the "challenge" in question.
Father Fox had not responded to any comment that I had addressed to him.
1. Along time had passed since I had engaged Father Fox in direct contact.
2. His challenge/proposal did not interest me.
3. His proposal was not the result of any direct comments between us.
Therefore, I did not have any reason to respond to his challenge/proposal in question.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark T., we are not debating or disputing that people partial to the Latin Mass are spotless. We are most certainly not. But as a group we are faithful to the Church and her clergy, including the Pope. We have disagreements with the Pope and are disappointed in his methods, but we are faithful. I am tempted to ask you to turn a similar internet search on any random number of priests or laity that vocally support Vatican II and the NO Mass, but that would be inciting you to calumny and you have no need of my help with that.
Mark Thomas,
Thank you for clarifying.
ByzRus said..."Mark Thomas, Thank you for clarifying."
My pleasure. I had not made myself clear. My fault.
Thank you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
rcg said..."Mark T., we are not debating or disputing that people partial to the Latin Mass are spotless. We are most certainly not. But as a group we are faithful to the Church and her clergy, including the Pope. We have disagreements with the Pope and are disappointed in his methods, but we are faithful."
Some folks within the TLM movement are faithful. Some are not faithful.
There is overwhelming evidence that the amount of folks at war with the Council/liturgical reform, and Vatican II Era Popes within the TLM movement is considerable.
The SSPX serves as the prime example in that regard.
The SSPX is a mighty force within the TLM movement. A great many folks within the TLM movement have, directly, as well as indirectly, throw in with the SSPX.
The SSPX alone demonstrates the considerable dissension within TLM circles that exists in regard to the Council, the Holy Mass of Saint Paul VI, as well as our Vatican II Era Popes.
We can add to the list: New Catholic (Rorate Caeli), Peter Kwasniewski, Taylor Marshall, LifeSite News, Mundabor, The Remnant — just to name a few radtrads — enjoy a considerable collective following within TLM circles.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
rcg said..."Mark T., we are not debating or disputing that people partial to the Latin Mass are spotless. We are most certainly not. But as a group we are faithful to the Church and her clergy, including the Pope. We have disagreements with the Pope and are disappointed in his methods, but we are faithful."
rcg, you noted the other day: "The producers of the Mass of the Ages videos are my fellow parishioners..."
In turn, I noted that the videos feature several folks — just a few listed below — who hold radtrad views. The Mass of the Ages videos whitewashed said views.
My point is that even pro-TLM videos that have been sanitized as much as possible are unable to hide the reality that a serious radtrad problem exists within the TLM movement.
Examples:
-- "Eric Sammons (editor of Crisis Magazine): Believes “Pachamama” is responsible for Covid; said that ‘Recognize and Resist’ is the only legitimate position for today’s Catholic,” explaining that “to ‘resist’ means to oppose the overall program of Pope Francis.”
-- "Joseph Shaw (Una Voce President): coordinator of the “Fillial Correction” of Pope Francis, accusing the pope of advancing seven heresies. "He has also described as “obviously true” (and not retracted) Archbishop Viganò’s debunked accusations against the pope. "He thanked a group (which included Peter Kwasniewski) for accusing Pope Francis of heresy."
-- "Timothy Flanders: Radical traditionalist who has described the current papacy as the “Third Pornocracy,” writing: “Now the Vatican Mafia (which formed into the St. Gallen Mafia in the 1990s) have their man as pope: Jorge Bergoglio. And he has shown himself loyal to his wicked entourage of pornocratic Marxists profaning the name of Catholic.”
-- Peter Kwasniewski, the radtrads radtrad.
-- "Dom Alcuin Reid, who is one of the featured interview subjects in Episode 2, was suspended from ministry after he was illicitly ordained to the priesthood in a clandestine ceremony by an unnamed bishop in April."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ByzRus said..."Mark Thomas, You've alienated many of the commentors here...your audience is very limited and thinning."
The undeniable fact is that if I trashed "Bergoglio" daily...if I denounced him as a rotten, vile man...worst Pope ever...he is an anti-Pope who hates God and the Church.
Vatican II is a miserable, error filled Council. The Novus Ordo is Protestant, Jewish, Masonic concoction designed to empty the pews. Said Mass must be destroyed as it is spiritual poison.
We must return to the TLM...the TLM that existed prior to Pope Venerable Pius XII's/Bugnini's destructive liturgical reforms.
If I espoused all of the above, then many "alienated" commenters here would praise me to the hilt. My "very limited and thinning" audience would increase.
That tells me all that I need to know in regard to many among those I have "alienated."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ByzRus said..."Mark Thomas, You've alienated many of the commentors here...your audience is very limited and thinning. Not sure what you believe you are accomplishing by so doing."
To explore that notion:
Are we dealing with a one-way street? Or, am I permitted to insist that many commenters here have alienated me? Are you concerned about that?
Are you concerned that said folks have lost me as a reader of their comments? Should said folks worry that losing me will thin their audience?
Not sure what they believe they've accomplished by having alienated me.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I apologize for extending this over long and overwrought thread, but this is relevant to the discussion:
https://youtu.be/LPl9LZJ6DcM
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