Saturday, June 5, 2021



Peter Kwasniewski muses that Pope Francis “may” (no one knows for sure what His Holiness plans, if anything) do the following to the EF Mass:

...Current practice would be to frame the changes not as generally binding prescriptions, but—under the pretext of decentralization and strengthening episcopal authority—as “extended possibilities,” or “options,” whose implementation would be left wholly or partly to the discretion of the local bishops. It is expected as certain that local ordinaries will be given full authority as to whether and when, and in what form, diocesan clergy may celebrate in the traditional rite. But priests of the old-rite communities could also be subjected to diocesan regulations for celebrating in churches of the diocese. In this context, it could come about that the previously valid prohibition of “mixed forms” would be relativized, so that, if necessary, readings according to the new lectionary and calendar, female altar servers, extraordinary ministers of communion, and other achievements of the Novus Ordo could be expected... 

My comment:

Of course Dr. Kwasniewski is fearful about the rumors and rumors of rumors about a crackdown on the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. He is alarmed as are many in the diverse EF community.

But what I quote above, which Dr. Kwasniewski wrote, is basically what I have been calling for since Summorum Pontificum in continuity with Pope Benedict’s written vision, that the celebration of both forms of the Mass would influence each other in an organic way, thus bringing both closer to each other in an organic development. 

Thus, is Pope Francis actually carrying out what Pope Benedict envisioned, that eventually there would be an “in continuity” Roman Missal that combines the best of both, in His Holiness’ view?


Richard M. Sawicki said...

Right on, Padre! Benedict’s vision of “mutual enrichment” between the two forms is barely begun. It WILL come about if cooler heads prevail on both sides. I truly believe the Ordinariate usage points the way.

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

Richard M. Sawicki said...

Right on, Padre! Benedict’s vision of “mutual enrichment” of the two forms has barely begun. I do believe the Ordinariate usage will point the way.

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

Anonymous said...

The only sure thing at this point seems to be mandated restrictions on the Latin Mass while none on the abuses in the newer Mass.

Where much of decision making on a Latin Mass at all in a diocese will revert to the local bishop and his own prejudices. Which will be very bad news for a lot of folk.

In those cases, it will likely have many fleeing to the waiting arms of SSPX parishes, especially if restrictions also placed on local FSSP parishes and accomodating local priests.

Many Catholics have been moving, uprooting their lives, only to find zero stability in what was seen as an orthodox haven where they could try to raise their families in a Catholic culture.

These are the people who will end up at a SSPX parish, simply due to perceived stability. Folk cannot afford to move infinitely, and many/most can hardly afford to move at all. When they get where they are going, they want it to last.

Victor said...

Amazing what rumours can do to take up people's idle time. Yes, it is true that once Cdl Sarah was on his way out, a world wide survey concerning the state of the TLM was launched by the Vatican, and it true that the new Prefect of the CDW is somewhat hostile to the TLM, preferring adherence to the party line for career advancement.(cf. ).

But it is also true that Francis has been much warmer to the SPPX than other popes, even restoring some of their priestly faculties. Certainly he would want the SPPX to accept the Vatican Council with no reservations, but even he has mentioned that interpretation of some of the documents is still controversial. For all I know, perhaps the survey revealed the growing influence of the TLM especially for young people as many claim, so if there are to be changes to Summorum Pontificum they may be to make the TLM even more accessible. I doubt Francis wants to create an instant exponential growth of young people in SPPX membership.

But this leads me to this post and its implication that changes in the TLM were and are needed. This has been the view of Modernist and neo-Modernist liturgists since at least early last century. But this reveals something about Modernism, that, as the French expression goes, those who hold that position are not happy inside their own skin. Instead of changing themselves, they want to change what is outside of themselves, thereby changing things for everybody. In that sense, they are control-freeks who want to control everybody by changing the liturgy according to their own way.

Take the case of the modernist view of active participation. To improve active participation, change the liturgy. But the liturgy is not a man made soccer ball that can be kicked around to just score their points for Modernist ideas. The effectiveness of sanctification starts from inside the person. If the person does not greatly value the Mass, little will be gained by him singing the 4 hymn sandwich. Indeed, even in this post the suggestion is to change the TLM to make the readings in the vernacular, and in typical American imperialist fashion, implying in English. If one truly believes that the Mass is the source and summit of one's Christian life, that it is sacred, then one would learn Latin as its main sacred language to formally address God with. Failing that, for whatever reason, there are plenty of bilingual hand missals if one just wants to "understand everything." In short, the problem is internal, to help people inherit the sanctifying treasures of the liturgy, not external, to change the liturgy.

Anonymous said...

According to many Traditional websites Francis will have a two pronged attack against the Latin Mass: First blow will come under the cover of Summer recess and concerns diocesan priests who will incapacitated to offer the TLM, they will be under the mercy of their Bishops to again ASK for permission to offer the TLM, the second blow will come in Autumn when Traditional communities such as the F.S.S.P. and Institute of Christ the King will be forced to align their training and pastoral work within the "guidelines" of The Second Vatican Council. So you all can keep saying and saying Francis will never do this or once and for all fight for OUR RIGHT to have The Mass of All Times!!! Pope Benedict gave us Summorum Pontificum and now Francis will destroy it. I will NEVER give in to the Novus Ordo service with clowns, altar girls, lay lectors, women and effeminate men in leotards prancing around the table, kiss of peace, hand holding, guitars, drums, piano, rock, folk, Green felt banners, communion in the hand while standing, improper attire. The list can go on and on and on.

Anonymous said...

The reason why I mentioned stability and its partner uniformity is because the isn't any in the modern Catholic world, and people long for that.

All they get today is doctrinal and religious rite (blank)-stirring, and attempts at marketing ploys run by CEOs and study groups attempting rebranding for market shares.

Where in truth, whether new Mass or old, most folk want only a stable place to truly worship and constant and never changing Truths proclaimed.


Meanwhile, today, it all depends....depends upon the congregation, depends upon The Club running the place as priests come and go, depends upon the whim of the priest, depends upon the whim of the local bishop. And no telling what you might find when you walk in, and no telling what might be there 5yrs hence or tomorrow.

Michael A said...

Father MacDonald: You have a very optimistic view of what the final result might be. Under honest and holy leadership your vision might result, but not with Francis at the helm. You should look into what is happening in my diocese. Rockford Bp. Malloy in 2017 gained courage after Benedict XVI was ousted and outlawed Ad Orientem and TLM unless given his approval. Has he approved either in the last four years? Not that I know of. He has used this edict to punish many good priests including mine from Batavia, IL, Father Parker. Church Militant has some segments on the story. If you give bishops that ability to outlaw reverential liturgy, they are going to do it pronto. We’ll be left with a few dioceses across the country that will be very good and most that will take us back to the dark days of the 70s and 80s. In the meantime Malloy has used an internal exile punishment on about a dozen priests in the diocese, because they’re the black robe types that Francis scoffed at, almost out of the gate when he took control.

Православный физик said...

Michael A, I'm with you, I'm much much less optimistic about this..

With Bishops' like these, who needs enemies? If that statement doesn't summarise what is about to happen, I don't know what will.

As for Female Altar Servers, EMHC's, the modern the TLM, yeah, about that, Lord spare that from happening.

Something to think both East and West at one time had in common, 1 year lectionary (different lessons), no female altar servers outside of a convent/monastery, no communion in the hand...hymnody not within a liturgical context....Somehow I think by doing the above that would not be a good thing..

Anonymous said...

And they wonder why....

Pope Benedict was "ousted"...

"...the local bishop and his own prejudices..."

"This has been the view of Modernist and neo-Modernist liturgists..."

"...they are control-freeks..."

" would learn Latin as its main sacred language to formally address God with...." (As if God had any concern over the language used to addrsss Him.)

"...I will NEVER give in to the Novus Ordo..."

"...He has used this edict to punish many good priests including mine from Batavia, IL,..."

And that is just from THIS thread.

Anonymous said...

As for that longed for stability of rite and doctrine, the FSSP might be soon endangered, and there are only 13 of their parishes between the eastern half of TX, KY and the VA coast, FL has the only 2 of the SEUS.

SSPX is not much better, a couple in TN in little vacant churches, a couple in LA, one in AR, several down in FL, one near Atlanta, several in eastern TX, several coastal NC and VA, with most of these lacking a full time resident priest, most of those churches abandoned/closed churches of protestant origin and interiors/exteriors quite sad. And stability is not even there for many as the priests moved to riper pastures.

All told, not 200 parishes nationwide between them. But either that, or muchly horrid local parishes proudly winging it since 1970.

And they wonder why people are leaving, when parishoners can count on about nothing staying stable for 5yrs, much less their life and the lives of their children, where only change is worshipped and trendy, new and exciting (within a 50yr window).

Joseph Johnson said...

A lot of people, including myself, prefer the EF because it does not allow for female altar servers, Communion in the hand and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Additionally, we prefer to receive Communion while kneeling and prefer ad orientem celebration (it makes more sense as the Mass should be focused on God—not us). I attend the Novus Ordo Mass most of the time because the EF is provided once a month in my area of the diocese (and thank God for that!!). The Novus Ordo is a valid Catholic liturgy and it is the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I grew up with the Novus Ordo from about age 9. We didn’t have altar girls, EMHC’s and Communion in the Hand at my parish until the early 1980’s, if I remember correctly. Those later changes are my main problems with the Novus Ordo.

Pierre said...

Anonymous K at 3:09 PM,

And prior to the "reforms" faithful Catholics did not have no worry about these things at all. Case closed

Anonymous said...

And the Selective/Misleading Editing Of The Year award goes to....(drum roll of copious intestinal gas, please)....
ANON 309pm!!! Winner of the 2021 Golden Wedgie!!!

Don't Pander to Me said...

Hey Joseph P. Johnson,

We are almost exactly the same age and I have to agree with everything you've said, except one additional point: The New Mass immediately had an aura of "pandering" to it. It was like hearing a dignified, venerable institution of timeless transcendence suddenly switch gears and say, "Hey! We're not so stuffy! We can be hip too! Look, we're not a bunch of out-of-touch disciplinarians! We're groovy!" And it just seemed foolish and ridiculous and I resented the sellout. Picture Cardinal Tagle dancing around with a bunch of teenagers. Trying to look cool, but just looking silly. Picture your grandfather swapping his grey flannel trousers for satin disco shorts. You get the idea.

I'll see you tomorrow for a healthy dose of timeless Catholicism.

Pierre said...

Don’t Pander to Me,

Unfortunately we have discovered many of the older clergy are juvenile delinquents and should do us all a favor and retire

Don't Pander to Me said...

Just as in secular government, the authorities who need to retire the most cling to their posts until the last gasp.

Take heart. Satan always overplays his hand.

Mark Thomas said...

Peter Kwasniewski, via his article promoted by Rorate Caeli (another Rorate Caeli attack against the Pope), continues to wage war against the Vicar of Christ.

Kwasniewski's comments are mind-boggling in light of the following:

Kwasniewski acknowledged:

"There is still no reliable information about the “interpretations” of Summorum pontificum announced by Francis, but there are numerous conjectures. Some of them are to be taken quite seriously."


Nevertheless, Kwasniewski insisted to expect this and that from the Apostolic See.

Even more mind-boggling is that after his having declared that "there-is-still-no-reliable-information," Kwasniewski said "but there are numerous conjectures. Some of them are to be taken quite seriously."

Reliable information is unavailable...but certain claims "are to be taken quite seriously."

What should be taken quite seriously is Catholic teaching.

-- Refrain from rumor/fear mongering.

-- Trust in God. Do not be afraid.

-- Obey Pope Francis' awesome Magisterial authority.

Should Pope Francis decree "X" in regard to Summorum Pontificum, then we are called to submit to "X."

God commands us to obey Pope Francis.

Pope Saint Pius X:

"Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed...because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope."


Mark Thomas

The Egyptian said...

considering that Francis rules like a Peronist ( if you don't understand do your homework) there is going to be more unsettling to come. Juan Peron could say the sky was blue in the morning and green later in the day and he was always right! And dissenters were "disappeared"

John Nolan said...

Mark Thomas

You have fallen into the heresy identified by Lord Acton in the nineteenth century, viz. that the office sanctifies the holder of it.

Have you ever met any of those you excoriate as 'Francis-hating right-wingers' and conversed with them? To give just two examples, Dr Kwasniewski and Bishop Schneider? I have, and I don't recognize your caricatures.

Some people on this blog see you as a crazed adolescent confined to his bedroom and acting out his fantasies. You are certainly puerile, purblind and probably autistic going on what you post. Can you enlighten us further?

Mark Thomas said...

John Nolan said..."Have you ever met any of those you excoriate as 'Francis-hating right-wingers' and conversed with them? To give just two examples, Dr Kwasniewski and Bishop Schneider? I have, and I don't recognize your caricature."

Then you have not paid attention to the hateful, repeated attacks that Kwasniewski has launched against the Vicar of Christ.

Kwasniewski traffics in utter garbage.

He is at war with our Vatican II Era Popes. The nonsense that he has espoused is so extreme that he has insisted that the Latin Church must roll back, at least liturgically, to Her pre-Pope Pius XII days.

-- Kwasniewski has denounced the Ordinary Form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as an "imposter" Mass that the Church must destroy.

-- Kwasniewski has denounced Pope Benedict XVI teaching that the OF and EF are two forms of the one Roman Rite.

-- Kwasniewski has denounced Pope Benedict XVI's teaching (the Church's teaching) in regard to Vatican II's continuity in regard to Holy Tradition.

-- Kwasniewski declared that our holy, orthodox Popes have constructed a “new paradigm,” piece by piece, for more than half a century — a “new” Catholic faith that at best only partially overlaps and at worst downright contradicts the traditional Catholic faith..."

Our holy Vatican II Era Popes have contradicted "the traditional Catholic faith."


Then the promise of Jesus Christ, who has protected our Popes' orthodoxy, has failed.

That is the type of utter garbage in which Kwasniewski has trafficked.

-- Kwasniewski has linked Pope Francis to the "canonical delict of heresy."


Perhaps Kwasniewski's most irrational, preposterous, utter piece of garbage, is his insistence that bishops need to “take the steps necessary to deal with the grave situation of a heretical pope...the "willingness publicly to admonish Pope Francis for heresy appears now to be a necessary condition for being a faithful bishop of the Catholic Church."

Peter Kwasniewski is so ridiculous...that he actually believes that admonishing Pope Francis for the sin/crime of heresy is "a necessary condition for being a faithful bishop of the Catholic Church."

Mister Nolan, do you actually have defend such utter absolute garbage as the above?

If so, then you have shamed and embarrassed yourself.

I refuse to join Peter Kwasniewski's Satanic opposition to Pope Francis.

I stand with God, and His holy and great Culture of Life Roman Pontiff — Pope Francis.


Mark Thomas

Tom Marcus said...

John Nolan:

SOME of us?

UK-Priest said...

Peter K is always wrong.... and you don’t have to meet him in person to know he’s a Francis hater because his views are plastered all over the internet.

Anonymous said...

Mark Thomas, off your meds?

UK Priest you strike many of us as mostly wrong. You are clearly not the intellectual match of John Nolan

Anonymous said...

UK Priest,

I doubt you have the training to even understand what Dr. Kwasniewski is saying. As an aside, if you are in the same camp as Markbot, you better do some real soul searching.

Mark Thomas said...

UK-Priest said..."Peter K is always wrong.... and you don’t have to meet him in person to know he’s a Francis hater because his views are plastered all over the internet."

Please note that Kwasniewski's followers here are forced to seal their mouths when presented with Kwasniewski's embarrassing, horrific, anti-Catholic utterances.

His embarrassed followers are reduced to attacking the messenger when confronted with Kwasniewski's embarrassing, indefensible, anti-Catholic trash.

What can Kwasniewski's embarrassed followers say in the face of such sick, Satanic, declarations as...

...bishops need to “take the steps necessary to deal with the grave situation of a heretical pope...the willingness publicly to admonish Pope Francis for heresy appears now to be a necessary condition for being a faithful bishop of the Catholic Church."

Kwasniewski's most fanatical followers here are aware that they cannot possibly defend such trash.

Therefore, they take the gutless way out.

That is, they seal their mouths in regard to the Satanic, anti-Catholic filth that Kwasniewski's spews. They opt to attack the messenger.

That, in turn, demonstrates that they have lost the argument in question.


Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

Mark Thomas,

Lost the argument? Laughing out loud. You can't even address what PF has done to discipline the gay clerics in the Vatican engaged in a cocaine fueled sex orgy. Where are your arguments in defense of his non-action? Why has PF not released the report on homosexual "Cardinal" McCarrick which has been promised for 2 years?

Anonymous said...

Actually, a report was released on McCarrick--it was a self-serving whitewash that tried to place the blame on previous pontiffs. Its release was so sensational that nobody noticed.

Anonymous said...

OH! OH! OH! There it is again! The "cocaine fueled sex orgy," as opposed to the "cocaine fueled repaint the garage floor orgy" or the "cocaine fueled clean out the ashes from the fireplace orgy."

TWICE in one day - how can we be so lucky???

Anonymous said...

Anonymous K at 1:19 PM.

All Markbot has to do is respond then this longstanding comment will go away. Markbot is like you, not responding to comments he cannot answer because it would undermine his fantasies and agenda. You claim to be pro life but YOUR party believes Abortion is "healthcare" and demanded it be funded as part of the funding dealing with fall out from the pandemic.

Anonymous said...

TJM - No, the comment will NOT go away. It's one of those convenient catch-phrases non-thinkers like to pull from their bag of what they think are tricks.

It's the same as BENGHAZI! and HILLARY'S EMAILS! and STOP THE STEAL! They're all nonsense.