Saturday, May 29, 2021



Archbishop Arthur Roche at the Vatican press office on Feb. 10, 2015.

New Leadership Team at Congregation for Divine Worship Shares Pope’s Perspectives on Liturgy


Anonymous said...

More sneak thief behavior from on high. SO inspirational. Time for another encyclical on prayer spending 50% of text bashing other people.

Tom Marcus said...

I am not trying to provoke, but Edward Pentin is quite correct in saying that many view the TLM as divisive. IT IS DIVISIVE and IT SHOULD BE.

This entire "continuity" theory doesn't hold up. It just doesn't. There IS a rupture in the Church and those who frequent the TLM are a sign in opposition to the rupture--a rupture that came from the top and their rejection of post-conciliar novelty and fluff is a living rebuke that shames the disciples of the rupture.

The only sector of the Church showing persistent growth in the last couple decades is the Traditionalist sector.

So go ahead Pope Sankt Gallen: Contradict Quo Primum yet again. Contradict Summorum Pontificum. Do you REALLY think anyone is going to buy the whole "he only meant the SSPX" line? Seriously.

This pope's aping of the Church is getting harder and harder to stomach.

Anonymous said...

Oh it's coming everybody, Francis has no love for the TLM, "ridged" priests and anything Traditional we have known that since day one it's no secret. Rorate Caeli, Dr. Taylor Marshall have all warned us for days that the edict is coming, and Archbishop Roche is no fan of the TLM, so hang on it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Anonymous said...

I find it so so fascinating that for over 50 years the modernists and TLM haters are still trying in vain to once and for all destroy the Mass of All Times and yet by the power of the Holy Ghost they have not and will not succeed!!

Fr Martin Fox said...

I have no inside information whatsoever, and I really don't have any sense of how the "politics" of the Church operate at that level. What I can say is that any significant restriction on the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass would be a big mistake.

First there is the question of those of us priests and those parishes where it is now available. Would be stopped from continuing? Not allowed to add any more TLMs?

Second is the question of other priests deciding to learn and offer the TLM. Third is the question of seminary training.

If any of these is restricted, it won't work. If I were told I could not continue to offer the TLM, I would immediate ask, "is there an 'unless'?" Would I need to affiliate with a community or order of priests that is allowed to do so? Give me the telephone number. If I'm told, well, you can't do it "publicly," then I guess I'll offer Mass in the church "privately," and, whoops! Where did all those people come from? Am I going to be told to lock the doors? Kick them out?

And what happens to vocations this way? We will certainly lose men to traditional orders.

I'm not even mentioning the more obvious things: that LOTS of people will be upset, the SSPX and other traditionalist groups will be further from reconciliation and will be able to say, "toldja so!" and there will be tremendous damage.

Meanwhile, the demographic sink hole -- to use Father Z's terminology -- continues to form under the Church; meanwhile, as we don't have enough priests to go around, traditional orders will be called on to take over a parish. At some point, someone's going to say, golly, why can't we have priests who can celebrate BOTH the newer and older forms of sacraments? By gosh, I think we did have that, until 2021 or so...

So even if it's a matter of giving bishops more power over this, the pressure is continuing to build for more Traditional Latin Masses. And, in fact, while most Catholics don't prefer it (let's be candid), few would be the Catholics who loathe it, and who would see the sense in needlessly provoking those who like the TLM. So it's hard to see who -- apart from certain clerics and liturgists -- would be happy about such a development. So why would the pope want to do this? Why would most bishops, who aren't strident about such things, but are managers who want to keep things calm, want to do this? This brings trouble to their doorsteps. A bishop who doesn't like it can find ways to discourage the TLM now; few bishops would really relish the blowup this would cause.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I hope there is not a reversal of Summorum Pontificum. However, I do think that bishops should be more engaged with what is happening with the EF Mass and offering proper direction to the priests who offer it and the communities which attend.

When I first implemented it in my parish in Macon, I had a survey to find out how many were interested because the bishop at the time asked for that. And then I had educational meetings and tried to explain this form of the Mass, should where the continuity is between the two forms, were the differences are and how the spirituality and ethos of both Masses differ and converge.

I emphasize that both forms of the Mass must be respected when done accordion to the books and the expectations for both.

Pope Benedict wanted some of the principles of Sacrosanctum Concilium applied to the EF Mass in terms of active participation, both internal and external. I think more work needs to be done in accomplishing this. Most congregations today which attend the EF Mass simply let the choir do their parts or the altar boys if it is a low Mass. There is no reason why the laity can't participate in the spoken or sung parts of the Latin Mass that pertain to them, but simply chants need to be used.

The EF Mass is now once again a living and breathing form of Liturgy for the Latin Rite. We need not treat it as a museum piece and have nostalgia for the manner in which it was celebrated in different periods of Church history. Let's enable the laity to participate in it.

At our Cathedral and in my parish, we have a lay lector read the Epistle and the Gospel as the priest reads it quietly at the altar in Latin. I find that duplication unnecessary. We could have great lectors either chant or read the Epistle and at the Ambo in the vernacular and the Gospel could easily be chanted in the vernacular too.

Some changes would be good changes for the EF Mass without doing violence to it. Bishops need to be involved.

Anonymous said...

The elephant in the room is the REST of the Catholic world lacking access or personal wealth for a translated EF Missal in their language (if one even exists), with likely half of those people and churches lacking electricity, much less a copy machine and paper for a weekly or daily handout.

To them, a Latin Mass may as well be in Martian. And we certainly are not going to see a huge push to provide and print those translations.

I am a person who prefers the Latin Mass, but there always were, and still are problems for the rest of the world.

Tom Marcus said...

Sorry Father, but that's the problem. The bishops are already too involved.

I STILL remember the week after Summorum Pontificum was published (or as we Catholics like to say, "promulgated") we had bishops who either knew little or no Latin or who had opposed the TLM indult in their dioceses, suddenly showing "concern" that any priests offering the TLM should "know" the Latin language and its proper use and immediately implemented "safeguards". The whole idea of Summorum Pontificum was to get the stinginess of the modernist prelates out of the equation.

I have no problem with bishops being "involved" so long as "involved" doesn't mean "prohibit" "forbid" or "create more bureaucracy". What's the likelihood of THAT?

Anonymous said...

The point of mentioning the rest/majority of the Catholic world, is without their backing, this minority squabble in a minority of the Catholic world is going nowhere.

And nobody in the Latin Mass fanclub seems to care about them at all, so why should they care at all about this liturgy war amongst spoiled Westerners? The answer is, "they don't".

They also have about zero help in getting them what they need, such as translations, as the Latin fanclub in the West actually knows esentially no Latin, either, and are in an uproar to use a language even THEY do not speak. This all likely looks pretty stupid to the rest of the world.

The more orthodox among them are far more worried as to majority in the West subscribing to a progressive revolution and THAT possible schism, rather, than them wanting to get involved in yet another possibly schismatic dogfight. Their concern was such as Sarah's in simply trying to resanctify what the majority is using/doing. Trying to peddle something else which nobody even speaks where popular is a waste of their time.

Pierre said...

I agree with Father Fox that restricting the EF would be a huge error. I, for one, who contributed almost 50 years of service to Church music as an organist, choir member and a cantor would withdraw from service and would no longer contribute money - not insignificant. I am not alone.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:38

Your Western prejudice is showing! My priest is from Africa he offers a very devout TLM. Another African priest nearby also offers it.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous K at 7:38 AM,

Any many bishops and priests could care less about the Faithful who desire the EF, including you.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Just a general comment:

If you're posting anonymously and not even including, in the text of your comment, anything like a pseudonym or nickname, then I'm not responding to you; because you're a phantom -- and it is what you choose to do.

If you want a response, then give yourself a name: "Mickey Mouse" will do.

rcg said...

Could it be that this is only to shore up the alliance with progressives and not actually threaten the traditionalists? So people who dislike the EF could ignore it and present roadblocks to anyone in their parish or diocese that requests including it in an OF parish, such as Fr McDonald did. But for those are doing it now, it would continue unmolested. Essentially they will stop its group outside of traditionalist parishes.

Fr Martin Fox said...


You highlight an interesting, possible consequence of such a move. If the Holy Father were, in effect, to restrain the TLM to where it is now, then in parishes that don't have it, there would be little or no hope of gaining it. So that creates a situation in which the message goes out: "you want TLM? You'll never get it here! Get with the program or get out!" And, meanwhile, the message from elsewhere will be, "you're welcome HERE..."

When the TLM was rarely available, that wasn't much of a live option, but now, the TLM is far, far more available than, say, 30 years ago. And before, there was some hope (perhaps foolish) that if folks tried they could get a TLM in their parish. But this retrograde move would, I think, represent a slammed door for that hope.

In the long run, that won't work. If you look at Dayton, Ohio -- we both know it well -- you'll see parishes that are emptying out, sadly, and yet the TLM parish there is growing. At some point, will the TLM come to another Dayton parish, if only because the priests who offer that Mass are willing and available? (I have no inside information, by the way; just a surmise.) It's happening little-by-little in the center of Cincinnati.

Anonymous said...

This fascination/obsession with those who post under "Anonymous" is a hoot and a half.

Like Fr. Fox, you can choose to ignore such posts. Or maybe, just maybe, you could respond to the idea or thought presented by an "Anonymous" and not be so very concerned about those who choose not to use identifiers of any kind.

Parishes where the TLM is offered will grow until a "critical mass" is reached. I would suggest we are very close to that now. As Fr. McDonald notes, the TLM is and will probably remain a "boutique" sort of thing, attractive to a very small cadre of folks who, for whatever reasons, enjoy/prefer it.

I see a parallel with the emergence of "traditionalist" colleges such as Christendom in VA, Wyoming Catholic in WY, Magdalene College in NH, and Ave Maria in FL. They're not popping up all over because the critical mass of those interested is already being served. Ave Maria stymied the attempts of the Archdiocese of Atlanta to establish a conservative college in north Georgia - there just weren't enough students interested. Even the wealthy Legionaries of Christ could not keep Southern Catholic going.

rcg said...

Fr Fox, my understanding of Summorum Pontificum is that it did more than allow that the EF existed but that it should be supported if requested by “stable group”. This implies more than a boutique event. But the bishop could set the bar very high for the regular OF parishes such that it would be almost impossible for laymen, such as myself to help establish an EF Mass by serving, MC, etc. and assisting the priest learn the ancient form. In our case the parish is almost bursting, but the Fraternity cannot supply an additional priest. But we do have occasion to have diocesan priests substitute when our pries is unavailable. The fact that such priests are available tells me more than the volume of laity in the pews.

Anonymous said...

Would the people posting here please take a moment and think it through before just typing up posts?


If you COULD care less, then you obviously care, since your level of care could be reduced.

"I could care less" might be worthy of 13 year olds, but even some of the most educated people posting here persist with this error. It not only makes you look and sound foolish, but it is downright grating on the eyes and ears.

Please stop. It's painful to see our beautiful language abused so!

Pierre said...

Those attending the EF is growing steadily, while those attending the OF is sinking fast. I think the EF will grow even more after the demographic sinkhole does its job because the folks that attend the EF believe what the Church teaches (not what the current hierarchy "teaches").

I come from a large, Irish Catholic family, and up until the early 1970s, most all attended Sunday Mass. Sadly, my family's children and grandchildren, rarely, if ever go to Sunday Mass, and at least half no longer attend AT ALL! So much for the power of the OF to attract people we keep hearing about from one commenter here. I look around at my friend's families and I see the same thing going on. I suspect the consolidation and closings of parishes will go into overdrive in the next 10 years.

Anonymous said...

Paris Pete - Well have all these fallen away family members had their faith revived by the "explosion" of the EF Mass? No.

Are they now dusting off their ancestors' English/Latin missals and becoming part of the "steadily growing" attendance at EF Masses. No.

Are they teaching their children and grandchildren using the vaunted Baltimore Catechism or the Roman Catechism or any Catholic catechism ? No.

Maybe it's time for you to re-think your analysis of the reasons people have given up the practice of the Catholic faith.

Troll Detector said...

Ah, the contentious troll surfaces again. "Paris Pete"! How clever!

Sadly, many people who have fallen from the Church never will go back. Once the ease of discarding the hardest of faiths to keep faithfully sets in, the tentacles of sloth make it all that much harder.

However, when one attends the TLM, there is no ignoring or denying the large numbers of young people in attendance. There is also no denying that, YES, some fallen-away family member, encouraged by this sign of undying tradition, actually DO dust off their Sunday best and come back. And there is absolutely no denying that this is the only sector of the Church that has shown any substantial growth in the last few decades.

People leave the Church for a plethora of reasons. A lot of young people leave because their experience of Novus Ordo culture is unsatisfying and many snicker at Mass when they hear the auditory garbage the "folk groups" impose upon our ears. The main reason the Catholic Church has been in a free-fall of attendance since the New Mass came in to being however, is that the Church stopped leading and began to conform Herself to the world. Looks like it worked, because it created a whole lot of miserable cynics like you.

Anonymous said...

TJM aka Paris Pete - "...the hardest of faiths to keep faithfully...?"

Try living an Orthodox Jewish life and see how "hard" Catholicism is in comparison.

I will deny that ONLY the TLM crowd is growing. Try looking at the numbers in any ten or twenty parishes in your own diocese and report back to us the number of new registrations and converts. THEN give us a report that is data driven.

Your calling ANYONE a miserable cynic is laughable. Your posts are nothing bu name-calling, baseless accusations, nasty innuendo, and insults to popes, cardoinals, bishops, clergy, and any laity that call you out on your absurdities.

Troll Detector said...

Ok, Ok, the sky isn't blue, sugar isn't sweet and we're all hateful and miserable and you are truly our superior in elightenment!

My my, you've got us ALL figured out!

Dear me! Dear me!

Православный физик said...

I'm pretty sure Pope Francis knows his approval rating amongst those who are more conservative or traditional is pretty low.

For the pope to do such a thing would pretty much doom him. Would I put it beneath him? OF course not!

At some point, the church in the West is going to have to get itself together and figure out, how it wishes to worship the Almighty, who she is, etc. In short, the contradictions of the various Missals are going to come to a boiling point where they can no longer exist in peace.

I pray that the pope will not put things back as they were prior to SP...we will see what happens.

Anonymous said...

TJM/Paris Pete -Everyone? No, just you.