Below this post I alerted you to the Italian doctors of the liturgy, who are far more sinister than the feared and much papal maligned doctors of the law, who have changed the Italian version of the Lord’s Prayer and Gloria.
Most Catholics don’t know that almost all praying Catholics in the USA gave the finger to English speaking doctors of the liturgy on two retranslated prayers, the Glory Be and the Our Father. They removed the “thys” from the Our Father which both clergy and laity gave the finger, but the Glory Be is a different story and shows the great laity/clergy divide.
In the Liturgy of the Hours, priests and religious pray: Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen.
But the laity persist in praying, especially in the public recitation of the Rosary, this version: Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
Italian laity rise up and raise your finger to your native doctors of the liturgy. We Italian Americans will show you the way!
As for the Gloria:
Et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Literal translation: And on earth peace to men of good will.
Current Italian translation: Peace on earth for people of good will
Classic Anglican translation: And in earth, peace, good will towards men.
Proposed neo-Modernist Italian translation: peace on earth to people, beloved by the Lord.
Quite a difference in meaning between the first 2 and the last 2. The idea of good-willed men is not possible today after the Enlightenment because, despite C.S. Lewis's warning of chronological snobbery, we now know that everyone is good and so will all eventually get to heaven. After all, is not everyone beloved by the Lord, even the great sinner?
I hope that the translation from Italian to English on the Vatican Insider website is wrong as the Gloria's re-translation is truly and egregiously wrong to say the least.
Used in England and Wales 1965-1975:
Glory be to God on high,
And on earth peace to men who are God's friends.
We praise thee.
We bless thee.
We adore thee.
We glorify thee.
We give thee thanks for thy great glory.
Lord God, heavenly King, God the almighty Father.
Lord Jesus Christ, only-begotten Son.
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
Thou who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Thou who takest away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.
Thou who art seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
For thou alone art the Holy One.
Thou alone art the Lord.
Thou alone art the Most High, Jesus Christ,
With the Holy Spirit; in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
There were some raised eyebrows at 'who are God's friends' but it was explained that it was to avoid any hint of Pelagianism. It was replaced with the 'ecumenical' ICET version which one recalls with a shudder, but sung settings of the previous text could still be used.
I always say the 'Glory be' as I was taught as a child: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
"How is it that Catholics in 50 short years have lost our identity? Do we blame Vatican II?" (asks Fr. McDonald)
One cause might be priests who encourage the laity to resort to vulgar language...
"Italian laity rise up and raise your finger to your native doctors of the liturgy." (suggests Fr. McDonald)
They should ignore any new translation that comes out....enough with this!
I mean if we want to translate prayers literally, secular saecolorum is better translated ages of ages....;)
I can't right now....
The two best-known vernacular prayers (Our Father and Hail Mary) were not altered for the English Mass since they had been familiar to everyone since childhood. They are now just as familiar from their use at Mass and so will not be changed.
BTW, the Hail Mary is always said in England and Wales at the end of the 'bidding prayers', on the insistence of Cardinal Heenan who was able to inform Rome that this had been the custom in the Use of Sarum.
Who else here also says “Blessed art thou amongst women...”?
As for the Pater Noster, it seems that the “tentationem” phrase has several positive interpretations but I would like to see an analysis of the original texts as that may reveal the lessons that were learned at the origin more than a purely gramatical breakdown of the Latin (that I fully support). I think the key will be the intent of the “ne nos inducas”. For example, “do not bring us to temptation” seems reasonable and even likely if a man realizes how weak he truley is to resist the world without the protection and guidance of God the Father Almighty. It continues the theme of humility the previous phrases put forth. Those Who Know the grammar of the Latin and Greek please straighten me out. Were there any authenticated Aramaic texts? I have heard a beautiful Aramaic version sung by a Georgian choir but have no idea if it is authentic.
Yes, let's scrutinize the last line of the Our Father. In the meantime, Rome burns....
Bee, I think that is exactly what we should be doing. Rosaries, novenas, adoration. I know how you mean what you wrote, but it seems that if we had been contemplating this prayer rather than trying to negotiate a change to natural law Rome might not be burning.
'Ne nos inducas' is a negative jussive subjunctive which has the same force as an imperative. Fr Hunwicke informs me that the Greek conveys a similar meaning.
St Jerome was conversant in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. I am prepared to concede that he knew what he was talking about.
Perhaps we could have 'supersubstantial' bread. It's less quotidian, if you excuse the pun.
At the risk of exeeding my quota, would then ‘ne nos inducas’ have a similar function as a litotes?
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