While I have consistently said that the EF Mass, more than likely, will not replace the Ordinary Form Mass and primarily due to Latin—most Catholics, I dare say, a majority of Catholics would prefer the EF Mass if only it was in the vernacular, but without that, the ordinary form will be the go to Mass for the vast majority of Catholics.
The biggest problem with the OF Mass is that it produces Catholics who are in a virtual schism in many parts of the world when it comes to the defined moral teachings of the Church, the latest being Ordinary Form bishops, priests and laity criticizing Pope Francis over his reiteration that same sex unions cannot be blessed or recognized as the Church would be in apostasy for blessing mortal sin, inimical to God.
The worst influence on the Ordinary Form Mass and thus Ordinary Form Catholics is the cult of the personality of the bishop or priest foisted upon the congregation simply because the priest faces the congregation with the good, the bad and the ugly he brings to the Mass. The personality of the priest overwhelms the Mass especially his own personal antics during Mass not found in the rubrics.
Not so with ad orientem or at least it is reduced considerably. Thus this photo tells the story:
The celebrant of this Mass in Augusta for Passion Sunday was a visiting priest. I don’t know who he is. But he appears to be as tall as our tall and lanky bishop, Bishop Stephen Parkes. He is 6”4”.
Our bishop also has a very long reach with his very long arms and this is most evident at the elevation of the Host and Chalice at Mass. The celebrant of this EF Solemn High Mass also has very long arms as you can see in the photo above.
In fact, if you did not see Bishop Parks kneeling (as any lay person would do during Mass) to the left of the altar (Gospel side), you would think, or at least I would think, that the celebrant is Bishop Parkes.
Or it could be any pope, bishop or priest in the world. It doesn’t matter who, because you can’t see the face of the celebrant at this most important point of the Mass.
That needs to be recovered, no?
35 comments:
Father, I believe the visiting celebrant is Father James Smith, FSSP, from St Francis de Sales in Mableton.
So heartening to see Bishop Parkes there! Diocese of Savannah is very fortunate.
Mallen
Sorry this is off topic but I can really recommend Fr Hunwicke’s Mutual Enrichment blog.
On this blog today I was astounded to read of the Kirchensteuer which the German bishops receive, which last year netted $7.5 BILLION! This is a system in Germany whereby those registered as Catholic divert 8-9% of their income tax to the Church.
One can only speculate if it is possible that at a time when the Vatican finances are going through such a dodgy patch if there is any risk of any of these German billions of $$ finding its way to Rome and possibly influencing policy?
There is a great variety of topics on this blog - eg: some very interesting discussion and comments on S John Henry Newman’s thesis about the past and possible future suspense in the function of the Petrine Magisterium etc; and thoughts about private Masses in S Peter’s in Rome and so on...
"That needs to be recovered, no?"
Clearly.
I feel like I've run out of things to say on some of these topics other then they don't effect me anymore. Sorry to say until maybe Peter II ascends the throne, not sure I see much changing from an institutional perspective in the way that we prefer. Certainly, not during this pontificate (remember, HH stated that the TLM is a "fad").
Father McDonald,
I am not so sure that the EF won't replace the OF for those Catholics who still bother to come to Sunday Mass. When I am at the EF Mass, I see young people, large young families, which you simply do not see at the typical OF. I do not see Latin as an impediment so long as you have a Missal which is not rocket science.
Fr. McDonald says, "While I have consistently said that the EF Mass, more than likely, will not replace the Ordinary Form Mass and primarily due to Latin—most Catholics, I dare say, a majority of Catholics would prefer the EF Mass if only it was in the vernacular, but without that, the ordinary form will be the go to Mass for the vast majority of Catholics".
If so, then use the "other OF", the Ordinariate form for Anglican-use Catholics: In English and with some options from the Tridentine Mass, because they are included in the Anglican "Anglican Missal," which is the basis for much of the Ordinariate's Book of Divine Worship. Some call the Anglican Missal a baldfaced translation of the pre-Vatican II Missale Romanum into Tudor-style English with side glances to the Anglican/Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer such Anglican hierarch/heresiach Thomas Cranmer's pre-Communion Prayer of Humble Access.
I can't speak for the USA but I can tell you that over here traditionally-minded Catholics would prefer a Novus Ordo in Latin to a Tridentine Mass in English, should such a thing exist. It actually did in ultra-high Anglican circles, but no Catholic would have participated in it. They even had an English Graduale which shoe-horned English texts into Gregorian chant, which did no favours to either.
Latin was a badge of identity for Catholics, just as the Established Church identified itself by its English liturgy.
The idea that Latin is a stumbling-block for would-be traditionalists has no traction this side of the pond.
Tom - the “other OF” ie the Ordinariate rite can ONLY be used by priests within the Ordinariate. For Roman rite priests to use it would be an abuse so please don’t use it!
I would settle for any heartfelt and reverent Mass in a beautiful church, all of the above in short supply in these parts. For me, these discussions are as listening to Ferrari vs Lamborghini arguments by respective car owners.
We were present for this beautiful Mass, Father. We drove an hour and a half, which was not a big deal since we drive an hour every Sunday for the TLM. Speaking for my family, the TLM is the ONLY Mass that exists. The Novus is not the same religion.
John Nolan,
I agree with you that a Latin OF is preferable to an English EF. One of the most spiritually enriching moments of my life was attending a Latin OF high mass at the Brompton Oratory. It was stunning both visually and audibly. The closest I have come to this experience in the US is the Latin OF high mass at St. John Cantius in Chicago.
Pierre
"Speaking for my family, the TLM is the ONLY Mass that exists. The Novus is not the same religion."
Which is the kind of thinking that, since it is un-Catholic, is one of the major problems with TLM devotees and why many clergy choose not to encourage it.
"Which is the kind of thinking that, since it is un-Catholic, is one of the major problems with TLM devotees and why many clergy choose not to encourage it."
which proves the point the clergy know the OF is rather un catholic and are afraid of exposing the congregation to the Mass of Ages. They might like it! And father stage hound would no longer be the center of attention.
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For Fathers original post, just the change of the position of the priest is important, I'm sooo tired of priests that "say the black" but exaggerate words and just plain make a hash of the prayers.
THIS. IS. THE. BODY. OF. CHRIST.
just say the prayers, please skip the theatrics, your not going to upstage God so get over your self. If the priest was facing God at the altar and saying the prayers in Latin in the "low" voice non of this would be a temptation!
Pater Ignotus (a.k.a. Fr MJK) speaking as Anonymous at 8:09 pm.
PIWMY - And if you subscribe to the un-Catholic notion expressed by Anonymous March 22, 2021 at 7:18 PM, then you, too, are one of the reasons.
Dear Malcolm Muggeridge Junior.....at 3.45pm:
Are you serious?
Do you think the average lay Catholic is a total idiot?
You wrote : “For Roman rite priests to use it would be an abuse......”
Many average lay Catholics, and those over 55 especially, actually have some experience of witnessing real liturgical abuse.
One does not need to google: Catholic Mass liturgical abuse/videos - to witness the more extreme instances of liturgical abuse in Catholic masses. Anyone old enough to have been in various Catholic Churches, especially in the era c. 1969 to mid 1980s, often has a lot of experience of real liturgical abuse.
I think people in USA are very much the same as John Nolan’s observation of the UK. When the new translation of the NO was released our parish had several classes and meetings to help people understand it. I was excited and therefore disappointed to discover significant resistance to it based on an objection to Latin and especially the more accurate English translation. I decided to try the FSSP parish and never looked back. The interesting part is that I encountered many other people in the same situation making the same migration, many of us have similar backgrounds. So I suspect that there is an appeal to certain types of people for the different format and the Latin is a barrier if the priest does not know Latin and can use it for his pastoral duties.
Anonymous at 8:13 AM,
I think that individual at 7:18 PM was engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but on the other hand, surveys show that EF Catholics overwhelmingly support Catholic Church teachings on subjects such as the Real Presence, abortion, gay marriage, and contraception, where not even a majority of OF Mass attendees do, so the OF or the priests celebrating the OF are NOT doing their job. That should disturb you.
My wife, who is a convert from the Southern Baptist tradition (as is my mother, who converted in the 1950's), has attended the old rite Latin Mass (EF) with me for many years. While she knows what it is and appreciates it, she still comments that she would prefer the same form of Mass but in English. While I can understand that view, here is what I see as a problem, based on my life experience growing up during the liturgical changes:
1. The required use of Latin makes it highly unlikely (unless a priest is a skilled Latinist) that he would take individual license with the prayers by changing them to his preferred wording (as has been done many times in the vernacular liturgy). Additionally, even were a priest to commit such an abuse with a Latin liturgy, probably very few would notice, which might take away part of that particular abusive priest's motivation for doing so.
2. The use of vernacular makes it much more likely that different styles of music will be written and employed (some of which are very much influenced by upbeat popular modern musical styles) in the liturgy. With Latin, it's pretty much going to be Gregorian chant or a classical style---I sincerely doubt you'd see a Haugen 'n' Haas style of music written for a Latin liturgy! Musical styles have a strong influence on the attitude and spirituality of those in attendance at a liturgy. Doe we want more solemnity and piety or a free-wheeling more worldly influenced style?
I think the Church had its reasons for sticking to Latin for so many centuries . .
Pierre
In the 1970s 'indult' Masses were few and far between and the Latin form of the Novus Ordo was the best one could hope for. Indeed, I convinced myself that the NO was actually an improvement on the Roman Rite, and attendance at Brompton Oratory kept me practising during those dark days.
The main problem with the Novus Ordo even in its Solemn Latin form is its adherence to the calendar and lectionary of the newer rite, and its linear quality. The choir might sing a polyphonic Sanctus and Benedictus but the celebrant must wait for both to finish before commencing the Canon. The NO also presents problems with its Communion Rite. Whereas the Roman Rite is srictly governed by its rubrics, the most solemn form of the Novus Ordo is simply one option among many.
Since COVID restrictions came in I have only once sung for the traditional Mass, but I regularly attend the Solemn Latin OF Mass at the Oxford Oratory which wasn't founded until the 1990s. They also celebrate the older Rite and will be doing so for the Annunciation in two days' time (one Low, one Solemn.) Their Sunday EF Mass is at 8 am but apart from its early start I have always preferred a Sung Mass.
Only not, definitely not, in English.
Off topic in reply to the German funding, this is precisely why the Catholics, Methodists, etc have let them get out of hand and infect their churches worldwide, and this is not only a Catholic problem.
Neither are The Incredible Shrinking Churches in Germany, they all are bleeding to death due both to the high tax and due to fundamentally not hearing the Truth but only feel good platitudes 2hich can be heard elsewhere for free. And so 1 out of every 3 Germans is giving serious thought to dumping their platitude merchants.
So, naturally, they think even less restrictive doctrines makes excellent marketing sense, where recruiting pagans will make up for the lost money....and as we have seen in Europe, renting out cathedrals for raves, setting up indoor amusement parks, etc etc....anything for a dollar/duetchmark/euro and a crowd.
However, to put German funding into perspective, the USA and Italy both supply the Vatican with nearly equal amounts annually.
The direction faced by a presiding cleric for 15 minutes once a week most certainly has had an enormous impact on the faith and society in general. If only the cleric would turn around consensus might be found amongst all the faithful.
The OF is extremely problematic because it has produced a host of ‘virtual schismatics.’ It may be worth noting the EF has produced actual schismatics: Lefebvrists, Fenneyites, Hudorists, the Union of Utrecht, the vast majority of western Protestant groups. Perhaps the EF is quite problematic as well.
SSPX is in an irregular situation but not in schism.
Currently, it is progressive bishops in Germany and elsewhere and others formed by the OF Mass and its illegitimate aberrations who are heading for a true schism, similar to the Protestant Reformation in Germany. This time it isn't necessarily over the liturgy, but indirectly so. We have bishops now calling for same sex blessings of unions which is a prelude to making it a "sacrament". They want women, trans and binary people to be ordained and they want sex without guilt, no matter the type of sex. One presumes that eventually consenting children will be in this theology as it is already in the fringes of the LGBTQetc community.
The SSPX are far from schism. And those who attend the EF Mass in most mainline parishes are orthodox and far from the type of schism we are seeing in bishops in Germany and elsewhere concerning sexuality and the redefining of the Church's sacramental life.
Unknown (we know who you are),
You sound like someone heavily invested in the massive liturgical failure of the last 60 years who cannot see the connection between the OF and the loss of orthodoxy
Rather than talk about "schismatics", let us then talk more specifically as to core Christian doctrine as put forth for 2000yrs....
Now, Mr. Smarty Pants Anon, which group has done more damage to those ancient and constant teachings, progressive OF or orthodox EF?
Which group contests for abortion as "reproductive rights"
Which is for homosexual/transexual/sex outside of marriage and partaking of the Body and Blood no matter what sinful state of life?
Which group is entirely for erasing all boundaries between authentic Catholic teaching and that of other sects?
Which is for essentially erasing the priesthood?
Which is for essentially erasing the Church as not relevant today?
Which is essentially pagan hijacking the name Christian?
Since EF, if it means anything at all, refers to the 1962 Missal it is difficult to connect it to past heretics and schismatics, and to say it 'produced' them is sadly symptomatic of our unknown correspondent's mental processes (and we have reason to know who he is).
The 'old Catholics' seceded over papal infallibility; various protestant groups questioned not just the form of the Mass but the theological meaning of it, which Fr Kavanaugh on his own admission does not.
That said, it is difficult to argue that Paul VI's new Mass, deplorable as it may be, 'produces' schism, virtual or otherwise. Only a relatively small number of groups have broken with the Holy See purely on account of it.
"You sound like someone heavily invested in the massive liturgical failure of the last 60 years who cannot see the connection between the OF and the loss of orthodoxy."
People make this claim repeatedly, but no one has ever shown the conection to be more than the fantasy of some Catholic curmudgeons.
These complainers look for simple answers to complex problems. "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Abortion? Blame it on Novus Ordo.
People don't go to church? Blame it on Novus Ordo.
Satanism is on the rise? Blame it on Novus Ordo.
Convert numbers are down? Blame it on Novus Ordo.
When those who have left are asked, the NO nor the EF are mentioned.
Anonymous K aka Unknown,
You can rant and rave all you want but the data shows EF churchgoers are far more orthodox than the OF crowd. It would appear orthodoxy means little to you based on your comments here and your voting patterns. The good news for orthodox Catholics is that priests like you won’t be around much longer to inflict further damage on the Body of Christ for which we are thankful
John Nolan,
The OF may not have produced a technical schism, but it certainly has not produced orthodoxy or a deeper understanding of the Eucharist. However, it has resulted in millions of people voting with their feet!
No, Mr Complex/No Easy Answers, you are running from the obvious while shrieking I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!
Which groups, EF or OF are pushing for all those destructive changes, while you maintain the EF folk are the problem?
Anon 4:25 - Then SHOW the connection.
Most people understand that coincidence is not, and does not imply, causality.
You saying that is does does not make it so.
Dear Mr Science who still ignores the FACT the OF followers are the hotbed of all the anti-Catholic, anti-Christian, total collapse into utterly secular world views, people, and the huge majority of those folk whom no longer even believe in the Real Presence...
while you tried to paint orthodox practitioners as the schismatics, and then mumble mumble about complex problems lacking simple solutions.....
Simple solutions such as knee jerk public protests for a meth head who ODed and croaked while being restrained while awaiting paramedic arrival....
NOW you want "scientific proof" past the astounding and amazing coincidence that ALL these pagan/heretical currents have only one home, and that is in OF "progressive/modern/hip and groovy, man, with-it" churches,...
and where you will find virtually NONE of that garbage in an orthodox and traditional parish where people are fleeing to get away from all your modern crap, and THEN you call THEM schismatics for not wanting to go to hell in a handbasket with all the "we are Church" hugfest "let's remake it in our own image" tower of babel "it's a complex problem requiring compromise with the world" secular groupthink.
Where the only clear thing is the "new and improved" is now an over FIFTY YEAR LONG TRAIN WRECK HAPPENING BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES as you bury day by day the last surviving old Catholics, and yet you ask me to show "proof", as if train wrecks fit in test tubes.
Which test tube you could not see anyhow as your head is so firmly buried in the sands of failure that you are incapable of seeing even the end of the Catholic world in your own parish, much less, worldwide.
Now, don't you have some "social justice protest" to attend? There's your god....the world....why worry about heaven when you have a world to make perfect?
Anonymous at 7:37,
Nah, he’s busy voting for the Abortion Party. Nothing says “social justice” like killing the unborn!
Anon 7:37 - It's really not science. It's basically just clear reasoning.
You've made an assertion - that the Ordinary Form CAUSES a loss of faith.
Your evidence is that NO ONE who attends the EF falls away from the Faith. And that those who attend the OF necessarily, since the OF CAUSES a loss of faith, are or will be defectors. But, we know that neither is the case.
Tell me, what was the only form of the Mass being offered when Martin Luther protested. Or Henry VIII, or John Calvin, or any other schismatic prior to the arrival of the OF?
Tell me, are there other factors, such as the love of money and all that money makes possible, that might, just might be, the source of all evil? I suggest there are.
Lastly, your grossly uncharitable comments about George Floyd - say his name, GEORGE FLOYD - reveal, in your reasoning which I reject, that the EF does not produce a growth in charity or compassion or faithfulness.
So, go "hear" Mass in whatever form suits you. Pray in whatever language you prefer. Bathe in the "tradition" till your spiritual skin is all pruney. But don't tell me that your preferences produce holiness when the evidence you give is in contradiction to that assertion.
Anonymous at 6:44 AM,
LOL - St. George Floyd? Where did he reference him? Sounds like your feverish mind is working overtime.
Some who attend the EF fall away from the Faith, but it is beyond peradventure that since the OF was foisted on the Faithful, millions upon millions have left the Faith, and of those who remain, a majority attending the OF believe that intrinsic evils like abortion are fine, something virtually no one who attends the EF believes. You need to grow up. I know you are invested in the liturgical failure, so it may be too hard for you
Hey, Anonymous at 6:44 AM,
More of your Party's stormtroopers "social justice" handiwork. You should be so proud:
Black Lives Matter protesters mobilized in Rochester, New York, attacked a Wegmans grocery store, and trapped an estimated 100 customers inside.
The protests were triggered by the death of Daniel Prude, a black man who died after a viral encounter with the Rochester Police Department. Democrat New York Attorney General announced last month that a grand jury will not seek charges against officers involved in the incident.
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