I was a teenager when Charles Manson and his friends murdered the actress Sharon Tate who occasionally appeared on the Beverly Hillbillies and six others. It was big news even before cable news. They even licked the blood off the bodies like the zombies on the Walking Dead!
Is it wrong for a priest to say good ridence?
Charles Manson -- the man who masterminded one of the most heinous murder sprees in American history -- is dead ... this according to the sister of his famous victim.
"O, you who love the Lord, hate evil, for He guards the lives of His saints..." Psalm 97:10
Debra Tate said. “Although I’ve forgiven, I have not forgotten, and I feel it’s very important that they stay exactly where they are until they die.”
“And in that way Charlie was the least of my worries. And I actually pray for his soul,” she added.
Is Manson glad now he's dead? That's the question ...
Remember when murdering seven people was a heinous crime that transfixed the nation for months? Now 50 people get killed or a couple dozen kindergarten kids get killed or a couple dozen people get killed in a church, and we're supposed to shut up and get over it. "The cost of freedom."
I saw that from Debra Tate. It was a wonderful thing she did for us. Manson’s brilliant insanity confronts our vanity with lies moulded from the shards of disgarded truth. The ultimate pornography, there is nothing in him that is not in everyone of us without the help of Christ.
RCG, there are a lot of people without Christ who do not do these things. I think there is a qualitative difference between people like Manson and the rest of us. I don't buy the liberal mantra that everything is just a matter of degree and there is no real difference between Hitler and Manson and Fr. MacDonald or me or you. It fits their egalitarian ideal for globalism.
How do we gloss over abortionists who murder so many innocents daily yet be shocked and outraged over Manson? Yes, he was filled with evil, but a society that encourages, protects and lauds abortionists is worse.
I recall vividly comments offered by Father John Zuhlsdorf upon the death of Osama Bin Laden.
We can relate the following to Charles Manson's death:
Father Zuhlsdorf: "So, Usama bin Laden is dead. He has now gone before the Just Judge and has received whatever eternal reward he merited. I may say a prayer that he repented and God is merciful.
"I am bit concerned at the cameras on the young people jumping around like IDIOTS whooping and hollering because someone was killed.
"I would rather see Americans welcome this news with a quiet nod of the head than with squealing in the streets. (cf Proverbs 24:17) It seems to me that his death isn’t something to strut about as if it were a gold medal win at the Olympics."
Proverbs, 24:17: "When thy enemy shall fall, be not glad, and in his ruin let not thy heart rejoice:"
New American Bible: Proverbs, 24:17: "Do not rejoice when your enemies fall, and when they stumble, do not let your heart exult,"
Pope Saint John Paul II, Encyclical EVANGELIUM VITAE.
"Not even a murderer loses his personal dignity, and God himself pledges to guarantee this. And it is precisely here that the paradoxical mystery of the merciful justice of God is shown forth.
"As Saint Ambrose writes: "Once the crime is admitted at the very inception of this sinful act of parricide, then the divine law of God's mercy should be immediately extended.
"If punishment is forthwith inflicted on the accused, then men in the exercise of justice would in no way observe patience and moderation, but would straightaway condemn the defendant to punishment. ... God drove Cain out of his presence and sent him into exile far away from his native land, so that he passed from a life of human kindness to one which was more akin to the rude existence of a wild beast.
"God, who preferred the correction rather than the death of a sinner, did not desire that a homicide be punished by the exaction of another act of homicide"."
All I can say is may God have mercy on him, he's probably thankful that us humans aren't God.
Careful with your "proof-texting" Mark:
Exodus 15King James Version (KJV)
15 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.
18 The Lord shall reign for ever and ever.
19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the Lord brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.
20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
I quoted Pope Saint John Paul II. In turn, he referenced Saint Ambrose. I quoted Father John Zuhlsdorf. In turn, he referenced Proverbs 24:17.
I also recall the statement issued by then-Vatican spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, S.J., upon Osama Bin Laden's death:
"In the face of a man’s death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred."
I am on board with the declarations that I quoted from Pope Saint John Paul II, Father John Zuhlsdorf, and Father Federico Lombardi, S.J.
I'll take Scripture over Popes and theologians. I rejoice when enemies of the faith are defeated in any way.
I agree with Gene, and he with me. If there is a 'nuance' it is that I know I was lucky to have what good influences I had because also I fell hook, line, and sinker for the bad ones. It is only the action and Grace of God that I have whatever claim I posses to His forgiveness. I would be loathe to judge the people like Charles Manson and it is in my weakness that I would destroy them, and I rejoice in God's Charity that he does not burden me with their lives.
Mark, you are right that we should weep that Manson may have died before his conversion. If the weight of all of his evil deeds became known to him I expect that divine moment of clarity would be followed instantly by madness and he would welcome the sword of the Almighty as his relief.
Gene: good quote. Keep reading:
Exodus 23: 20
"And now I am sending my angel to go before thee and guard thee on thy way, and lead thee to the place I have made ready for thee.
21 Give him good heed, and listen to his bidding; think not to treat him with neglect. He will not overlook thy faults, and in him dwells the power of my name.
22 If thou wilt listen to his warnings, and do all I bid thee, then thy enemies shall find an enemy in me, and those who shew thee no mercy shall find me merciless.
23 So this angel of mine will go on before thee, leading thee on into the land of Amorrhite and Hethite, Pherezite and Chanaanite, Hevite and Jebusite;
And I will wipe them out."
I was still in 8th grade when this happened. The behavior of the murderers was horrifying. No shame. No remorse. And Manson's antics were the worst of all, and the press reported every sordid detail of his comments and behavior. The whole event was so repugnant, and Manson was the center, defiant and gloating and enjoying the attention.
In a way his death marks the end of a very horrible era, one where lawlessness was celebrated in many circles as freedom. Or maybe it's that his life marked the beginning of such an era, and we are still living it. I guess the best that can be said is that now that he is gone he cannot hurt anyone ever again, even in a small way. For that there is some measure of gratitude.
I ask God who knows all things and sees all things and is infinitely just to have mercy on the soul of this man who did little to control his most evil impulses, and as a result caused such pain in the lives of so many people. Only he and God know if he repented and accepted the Mercy of God.
Gene said..."I'll take Scripture over Popes..."
Such as the following Scripture:
"That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
"He that heareth you, heareth me;"
Yep, that is Scripture alright. What's your point?
The point is that your rejection of the role of the papacy - nothing new for you - is a rejection of the Scriptures.
The further point is that in rejecting the Scriptures you are rejecting God's word.
Again, in rejecting God's word you are rejecting God.
That's the point.
No one is rejecting the role of the Papacy, and the truth of Scripture is not predicated upon the Papacy. Again, your incredible lack of theological understanding is stunning.
Certain passages in Scripture such as those from Exodus quoted earlier in this thread are a real spiritual struggle for me. If, like sexual misconduct, violence is a central human problem—perhaps even_the_central human problem—and a result of humanity’s Fall from Grace, then what are we to make of those many passages, especially in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, that portray our God in such violent terms and seemingly endorse human violence, including mass violence, inflicted upon the “enemies” of Israel and that have been invoked over the centuries, and continue to be invoked by some today, to justify violence in various circumstances?
I certainly do not want to lapse into some kind of neo-Marcionite heresy, but I do need to know what to do with these passages. I also need to know what to do with the thought that, had the Jews in the time of Jesus taken to heart His admonition to love their enemies, and to go two miles when Roman legionnaires pressed them into bearer service for one mile, instead of pursuing the way of the Zealots and other rebels, then the Romans likely would not have destroyed ancient Israel and the history of the Middle East likely would have taken a very different course.
Ah, but the truth of the papacy IS predicated on Scripture. You, yourself, said, "..."I'll take Scripture over Popes...".
When you reject the current pope's authority, you reject the Scripture upon which that authority is based and revealed to us.
This shows an incredible lack of Catholic theological understanding.
You are wrong again, Kavanaugh. The truth of the Papacy is not predicated upon one Pope's heretical rantings. The Pope is not the Papacy.
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