IS THAT ROBERT CARDINAL PREVOST CELEBRATING THE TLM AND USING ROMAN VESTMENTS AND HIS GRANDMOTHERS LACE OF AN ALB?????
It seems to me that maybe a TLM Ordinariate using the existing FSSP is one option for Pope Leo to create in dealing with the problem of the TLM and he could name bishops from the priests of the FSSP or the other orders which primarily celebrate the TLM.
Then His Holiness could allow them entry into any part of the world to set up parishes under a bishop of the TLM Ordinariate as it is done with the Anglican Ordinariate and also with the Eastern Rites, which are in Latin Rite Dioceses, but not under the Latin Rite bishop.
14 comments:
I believe it's been pretty definitively established that Cardinal (Bishop?) Prevost was celebrating a Novus Ordo ad orientem in the pictured Mass. Of primary note--no maniple, and (though this is less conclusive) no pontificals.
The idea of an ordinariate is an interesting, and almost tantalizing, one that could reconcile the various teachings about the worthiness and importance of celebrating the TLM in the modern day with the "unicity" of the Roman Rite. It could also allow traditionalists and non-traditionalists to leave each other alone where necessary and cooperate where possible, as occurs with the "Anglican" ordinariate communities.
But I'm sure there would be unintended negative consequences, and I'm not sure those have really been examined at length.
Nick
An idea whose time has come? Perhaps so long as all Latin priest have the option to celebrate the Traditional Mass. Or the Pope could simply start appointing members of these traditional groups to the general episcopate.
AI Overview
Any Catholic priest in good standing can celebrate the Ordinariate Mass, especially when asked to help at an Ordinariate parish, but generally needs permission from both their own diocesan bishop and the Ordinary of the Ordinariate if they are not incardinated into it, while Ordinariate priests can celebrate it anywhere with permission. While any priest can concelebrate, celebrating it publicly or privately usually requires specific permission from the relevant Ordinary (the Ordinariate's bishop) and/or their own diocesan bishop to ensure it aligns with pastoral needs and norms.
Who Can Celebrate
Ordinariate Priests: Priests incardinated into an Ordinariate (like the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter) can celebrate the Mass using the Ordinariate's liturgical books, even outside their specific parishes, with permission.
Diocesan (Latin Rite) Priests: A diocesan priest can celebrate the Ordinariate Mass, but typically requires approval from their own diocesan bishop and the Ordinariate's Ordinary, especially if they are filling in or asked to do so by the community.
Any Catholic Priest: Any priest in good standing can generally concelebrate an Ordinariate Mass.
When Permission is Needed
Filling in for an Ordinariate Parish: A diocesan priest asked to cover for an Ordinariate parish's priest (due to illness, etc.) can celebrate using the Ordinariate Missal.
Private Masses: A Latin Rite priest may not need permission for a private Mass, but for public celebrations, especially outside an Ordinariate parish, permissions are key.
In Summary
The Ordinariate's Divine Worship Mass is a valid form of the Mass, and while any Catholic priest can participate, using its specific liturgical books requires following norms set by the Catholic Church, often involving permissions from the Ordinariate's leadership and the priest's own bishop.
William - I celebrate the NO regularly. It is as "traditional" as the TLM or any other mass that Holy Mother Church has given us to celebrate.
All Highest K, why do you come here to lie? No one believes your twaddle that YOUR Mass (the Rite of Kavanaugh) is as traditional as the TLM? But of course, you are the Master of the Orwellian as is the Cult Party you belong to, i.e, Abortion is Healthcare! I guess assisted suicide is healthcare too!
A few months into his holy, wonderful Pontificate, Pope Francis (requiescat in pace) had conducted a positive meeting with the FSSP.
https://www.fssp.org/en/blessing-of-pope-francis-on-the-occasion-of-the-25th-anniversary-of-the-fssp/
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2024 A.D.
-- Pope Francis meets FSSP head, confirms right to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass
https://www.ewtnnews.com/vatican/pope-francis-meets-fssp-head-confirms-right-to-celebrate-the-traditional-latin-mass?redirectedfrom=cna
"Pope Francis met with the superior general of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) on Thursday, confirming that restrictions on the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass don’t apply to the order."
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May the FSSP enjoy full communion with Pope Leo XIV.'
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Pax.
Mark Thomas
Setting up an Ordinariate with their own bishop(s) would be an ideal solution, I think. Those who prefer the TLM would not be subject to the whims of the local diocesan bishops. But a lot of criteria would have to be established to determine where, and under what conditions one could become a member, etc.
Fr. Kavanaugh,
What complete nonsense! Why do you keep repeating this folderol? Words have a generally accepted meaning. You cannot just change the meaning to suit your agenda. You can repeat this as much as you like; no one is going to accept it. You are just making yourself look silly and desperate.
Anthony - You understanding of the meaning of "tradition" is impoverished and self-serving.
What you seem not to understand is that Catholic theology is a science, and its weights and measures are the words and phrases used in precise ways.
Tradition has particular connotations in Catholic usage. It denotes Authenticity. That Jesus is divine is AUTHENTIC Catholic teaching
It also denotes that which is Essential. The belief in the divinity is Jesus is ESSENTIAL for a Christan.
CCC 80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."
In this passage, "Tradition" refers not only to what is historical, but also to what us authentic and essential. The Church teaches that the Second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. This teaching is both authentic - it is what the Church teaches - and it is essential - it must be believed by a Catholic Christian.
In Catholic usage "Traditional" and "traditional" have more nuance than you might allow. As you use it, "traditional" mean historical. Elements of the mass that are historical - and the history is very long - are the use of Latin, celebration ad orientem, Gregorian chant, exclusion of women from serving, etc.
I employ the more nuanced, deeper understanding of "traditional" which includes the connotations of what is traditional being both authentic and essential. The NO in the vernacular, versus populum, with hymnody, and including female altar servers flows from the same well-spring, the Divine, as the style of mass you prefer. This It is authentic in that it is authorized by the Church. And it is essential in that the sacrifice of the mass, that is it a true sacrifice, that it is an unbloody representation of Calvary, that, as true worship, it is the source and summit of Christian life.
With that richer understanding of "traditional" I maintain that the NO is, in every sense traditional while being different in historical elements from the mass you prefer.
All Highest K - no one believes you. Give it up.
Father McDonald, here is an excellent read from Rorate about sad little Arthur.
It levels him intellectually and the notion that the TLM works against "unity," because after all there are 24 different Rites in use in the Catholic Church, so why not one more?
Anthony,
There's something to be said for the idea that the Church over the last 60-70 years, and especially the last 12 or so, has become increasingly Humpty-Dumpty-esque in its use of language.
Very Orwellian. I hope Pope Leo recognizes that.
Nick
Oh, right, "tradition" means adhering to novelties introduced by priests and bishops rebelling from the Church and rejecting Vatican II while supposedly acting in its name, rather than adhering to what has been passed down to us. Yes, a "banal, on-the-spot product" of a committee of ideologues, whose current practice is often more informed by the liturgical abuses of "presiders" to make it "more meaningful" than by its own instructions, is just as much of a tradition--something handed down to us by our ancestors--as any other rite in the Church!
The seminaries in the 1980s, I tell ya...
Carrollian, indeed.
Nick
Fr. Kavanaugh,
The more nuanced understanding of "traditional" is to recognize the equivocal meanings of the term, as have many words in English, that can be distinguished by context. You are deliberately, and dishonestly, conflating two different meanings of the term. The "tradition" that you refer to in the Catechism is rightly called, as the Catechism does, "Sacred Tradition." Catholics have always distinguished this from common tradition or custom. (Notice the difference in capitalization.) When I and others refer to the Traditional Latin Mass or as something being "traditional" it is to this common meaning of the term, i.e., something that has been handed down through the generation. We are not referring to Sacred Tradition; and what is more, you know it. "Traditional" in this context is use to distinguish between what has been handed down and what is modern or novel. Indeed, the proper adjectives to describe what follows Sacred Tradition or not, is not "traditional" vs. "modern," but "orthodox" vs. "heretical."
By trying to reduce "tradition" in all instances to Sacred Tradition you are attempting to delegitimize the value of common tradition. And as such you are the one who is rejecting Vatican II which explicitly stated, "That sound tradition may be retained..." Is the new Mass valid? Yes. Is it authentic? Yes. Does it contain all that is essential for validity? Yes. I have argued for this myself. Is it traditional, i.e., what has been handed down through the generations? NO! And no amount of spin can make it so.
Anthony,
Good points, "Sacred Tradition" and "tradition" are not identical, even if there's some overlap.
And nice quote from Vatican II! Too bad the theories of the "maniacs" on the Consilium all too often weren't founded on "careful investigation," which Vatican II required as a predicate for making changes.
Nick
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