Praytell loves calling the Extraordinary Form Mass the unreformed Mass. But the Ordinary Form Mass has experienced some additional reforms and more might come even if, as progressives like, it has to take place from the grassroots level. Then we could call the reformed Mass as it is mostly celebrated the unreformed Mass too when others reform it for the better.
What can we licitly do? Fr. Fox and John Nolan have a give and take and I like what John Nolan will experience on Sunday in London.
In addition to what John Nolan will experience, couldn’t the priest and ministers also include in their procession to the altar the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar whilst the processional hymn is chanted or even the longer, traditional form of the Introit. What would be wrong with that? Absolutely nothing!
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Fr Martin Fox said...
John Nolan:
If more elements of the older tradition find their way into the ordinary form of the Mass and sacraments and other rituals, I will be very happy. But I grew up in a time when so many priests took it upon themselves to re-work the the rubrics as they saw fit. I do not want to emulate them. So I await these things coming down a more licit path.
If more elements of the older tradition find their way into the ordinary form of the Mass and sacraments and other rituals, I will be very happy. But I grew up in a time when so many priests took it upon themselves to re-work the the rubrics as they saw fit. I do not want to emulate them. So I await these things coming down a more licit path.
John Nolan said...
Fr Fox
That's understandable, but you will be waiting a long time. 'Elements of the older tradition' won't mysteriously find their way into the Novus Ordo; they have to be put there as a result of choice, and choice is almost a defining feature of Paul VI's Mass.
The Solemn Mass I shall attend tomorrow will be in the new Rite, but, as on every Sunday, will take the following form. All the choices are entirely licit.
a) It is sung in Latin, with the traditional orientation (ad apsidem). The three Scripture readings and the Bidding Prayers are in English.
b) The celebrant is assisted by two sacred ministers who take the roles of deacon and 'subdeacon'.
c) The Mass is preceded by the Asperges in its older form, with the traditional versicles, responses and oratio.
d) The first option for the Penitential Act is invariably used. Although the opening and concluding rites are at the chair, the sedilia are arranged traditionally (not in front of the altar or tabernacle, and not facing the people).
e) The Gregorian Propers from the 1974 Graduale Romanum (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Communio) are used.
f) The Roman Canon is invariably used, recited audibly and following the Novus Ordo rubrics.
g) There is a simple chant setting of the Agnus Dei at the Fraction; the polyphonic Agnus is sung during the people's Communion.
h) Communion is kneeling at the rail, in one kind only.
i) There is a recessional hymn, but the congregation 'say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them'. This includes the responses, the Confiteor, the Credo and the Pater Noster.
The first reading is done by a lay person, but there are no EMHC and service at the altar is reserved to males.
In a sense, the most traditional element in this form of Mass is the fact that although the Propers change, the Ordinary by and large does not.
That's understandable, but you will be waiting a long time. 'Elements of the older tradition' won't mysteriously find their way into the Novus Ordo; they have to be put there as a result of choice, and choice is almost a defining feature of Paul VI's Mass.
The Solemn Mass I shall attend tomorrow will be in the new Rite, but, as on every Sunday, will take the following form. All the choices are entirely licit.
a) It is sung in Latin, with the traditional orientation (ad apsidem). The three Scripture readings and the Bidding Prayers are in English.
b) The celebrant is assisted by two sacred ministers who take the roles of deacon and 'subdeacon'.
c) The Mass is preceded by the Asperges in its older form, with the traditional versicles, responses and oratio.
d) The first option for the Penitential Act is invariably used. Although the opening and concluding rites are at the chair, the sedilia are arranged traditionally (not in front of the altar or tabernacle, and not facing the people).
e) The Gregorian Propers from the 1974 Graduale Romanum (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Communio) are used.
f) The Roman Canon is invariably used, recited audibly and following the Novus Ordo rubrics.
g) There is a simple chant setting of the Agnus Dei at the Fraction; the polyphonic Agnus is sung during the people's Communion.
h) Communion is kneeling at the rail, in one kind only.
i) There is a recessional hymn, but the congregation 'say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them'. This includes the responses, the Confiteor, the Credo and the Pater Noster.
The first reading is done by a lay person, but there are no EMHC and service at the altar is reserved to males.
In a sense, the most traditional element in this form of Mass is the fact that although the Propers change, the Ordinary by and large does not.
