From the National Chismatic Reporter(NCR), the pot calling the kettle black:
After 'The Two Popes,' will the next movie be called 'The Schismatics'?
Of course, the Netflix movie is a fiction, almost a caricature. Anthony Hopkins is Pope Benedict XVI and Jonathan Pryce is Pope Francis, the respective movie heroes of the right and of the left. The movie moves from the election of Benedict to that of Francis.
Predictably, Catholic "traditionalists" and "progressives" have taken sides.
The right complains about a Vatican-owned building displaying a "The Two Popes" poster because Netflix is streaming a Brazilian "gay Jesus" Christmas parody. So, they say the church has sold out. Not to mention their annoyance at the way Benedict is portrayed.
The left sees the same poster as criticism of Francis. They see drawn knives: The building houses "Propaganda Fide" — the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith — the dicastery to which Filipino Cardinal Luis Tagle was recently named. And they rather like the pre-Francis Bergoglio, warts and all.
18 comments:
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is portrayed by certain folks as a right-winger. However, many right-wing Catholics have, for decades, trashed him.
From his liberal theologian,suit-and-tie wearing Vatican II days to date, Father, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope, Emeritus Joseph Ratzinger has been labeled a "heretic," "Liberal," Modernist," "Socialist," and "Progressive."
Following his 2013 A.D. decision to resign as Pope, Emeritus Benedict XVI has been labeled a "coward" by many right-wing Catholics.
For decades, Emeritus Benedict XVI has been unrelenting in support of:
-- Vatican II.
-- Mass of Saint Paul VI.
-- Praised Martin Luther
-- Ecumenism.
-- Interreligious "dialogue."
-- The razing of the Church's bastions.
-- Assisi gatherings.
-- United Nations.
-- "Tree-hugging" environmental issues.
-- At Assisi III, he permitted a voodoo witch doctor to chant a prayer to a strange god.
-- He elevated one liberal after another to the rank of Bishop.
-- Emeritus worshiped at Rome's Lutheran church. Prayed at synagogue and mosque.
-- He had cast aside the ancient Good Friday prayer for Jews.
-- He praised Pope Francis' Pontificate.
-- He declared that his former Pontificate and Pope Francis' Pontificate are in continuity with each other.
By right-standards, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is a "modernist."
However, in popular culture. he is portrayed falsely as a staunch right-wing, reactionary.
I have been amazed for decades that he has been portrayed as such.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas
After reading Mr. Thomas' reminder of the leftist Benedict, I can only say "Thank God (or should that be 'Thank Francis) that we now have the mostest popiest pope of all popery - the humble Francis of God.
MT is finally right about something!
Mark Thomas
You have created a dichotomy of 'right' and 'left' which fits your simplistic arguments and gives you seemingly endless scope for selective quotation and (as above) generalized and therefore misleading examples.
Every single point you make concerning Benedict can be, and indeed should be qualified. Traditionalists welcomed Benedict XVI's election based on his record over the previous 25 years. In his all-too-brief pontificate he did not disappoint. Liberals made no secret of their dismay, again based on his record over the previous 25 years. They may have lost some ground during JP II's reign, but in 2005 theirs was still the dominant voice in the media.
In your skewed analysis you pit a large and influential faction in the Church, which includes cardinals, bishops and pundits (your 'left-wingers') against a minuscule number of probably deranged sedevacantists (your 'right-wingers'). It is such a grotesque imbalance that it is hardly surprising that you are confused.
It does not seem to have occurred to you that well-informed traditionally-minded Catholics did not buy into the liberal view that Benedict was a reactionary, and would certainly not have seen him as a Modernist. Like Newman, Benedict consistently opposed liberalism in religion, and like Newman he knew what it meant - 'the dictatorship of relativism.'
Dan said..."After reading Mr. Thomas' reminder of the leftist Benedict, I can only say "Thank God (or should that be 'Thank Francis) that we now have the mostest popiest pope of all popery - the humble Francis of God."
Dan, for decades, right-wing Catholicism has portrayed Father, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope, and Emeritus Joseph Ratzinger as a liberal...modernist...heretic...apostate.
You didn't know that?
Are you familiar with the vicious attacks that the SSPX, for example, launched against then-Cardinal Ratznger?
They identified him as a faithless liberal.
Example:
Here is a vicious 1993 A.D. anti-Cardinal Ratzinger article that was published in the SSPX's magazine Angelus.
https://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/1994_June/They_Think_Theyve_Won_PartVI.htm
CARDINAL RATZINGER: A PREFECT WITHOUT FAITH AT THE CONGREGATION FOR THE FAITH
Final paragraph from said article:
"For this reason, a Catholic who cherishes the Catholic Faith and loves the Church is able to favor or subscribe to a number of Ratzinger's central affirmations, but, on closer observation of what this "restorer" proposes in place of the current universally-deplored "abuses," he will find himself unable to approve even a single sentence."
"And this is because the downward neo-modernist path leads us down the same slippery slope, even though it does so more gradually, it still ends up with the very same complete rejection of Divine Revelation, that is, in apostasy."
"No doubt about it: the writings of Ratzinger the "Theologian" are there for all to see, demonstrating an undeniable proof of this flagrant apostasy."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mister Nolan, for years on Father's blog, you have labeled as "selective" quotations and facts that have countered your claims.
That has been your standard response..."selective" quote..."selective" fact.
You have pretended that Emeritus opposed the Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI. I have quoted the praises that Emeritus had heaped upon said Mass.
You response: "Selective."
You pretended that Emeritus opposed the Assisi gatherings. I noted that he had praised Assisi I and II...authorized Assisi III.
During Assisi III, he even permitted a voodoo witch doctor to chant a prayer to a strange God.
Your response: "Selective."
Emeritus, a "Green" Pope, declared that the promotion of "tree-hugging" environmental issues was vital to secure world peace.
Your response: "Selective."
The supposed staunch, right-wing "traditionalist" Emeritus has been unrelenting in support of Vatican II, Novus Ordo, Ecumenical Movement, interreligious "dialogue,"...prayed in a synagogue, mosque...
...praised Martin Luther...spent part of a Sunday having worshiped at Rome's Lutheran church.
Your response: "Selective."
The bottom line: When reality interferes with your claims...reality is labeled as "selective."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I dont know why you are listening to the SSPX Mark - they are in schism according to Card. Burke.
Mark Thomas
The terms right-wing and left-wing are political ones and have no clear definition. Even the terms 'conservative' and 'liberal' have different meanings on either side of the Atlantic. So to see the Church in terms of 'left' and 'right' is unhelpful and misleading, as much as it might suit your Manichaean proclivities.
Even the terms 'traditionalist' and 'liberal' are problematic although since Catholics tend to self-identify using these terms there is no escaping them, but they should not be taken to imply hard and fast doctrinal positions.
The overwhelming majority of those who identified as 'traditionalist' admired Benedict XVI, both as cardinal and later as Pope, because of his clarity, his decisiveness, e.g. when the US abuse cases landed on his desk, his liturgical sensibility and, above all, his condemnation of relativism, which he saw as the main threat to the Church in the 21st century.
The same people do not see the same attributes in his successor. They are not motivated by diabolical hatred of Pope Francis - that is a product of your fevered imagination and jejune dualistic position - but they are certainly concerned at the direction this papacy appears to be taking.
I agree with the SSPX.
Ratzinger and Bergoglio aren’t as different as some pretend them to be. Ultimately, they’re both infected with the same poison — Vatican II — only differing in degree (and then not by much).
Dan said..."I dont know why you are listening to the SSPX Mark - they are in schism according to Card. Burke."
That is his opinion. I don't believe that the Church agrees with the Cardinal's opinion in question.
I referenced the SSPX as follows:
Contrary to Mr. Nolan's claims about the right-wing's supposed wonderful relationship with Father, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope, Emeritus Benedict XVI, many right-wingers have for decades denounced Cardinal Ratzinger as a faithless modernist.
The SSPX, a leading right-wing group, with admirers beyond its boundaries, has, for decades, testified to the above.
Anyway, Emeritus has long rejected the notion that he's a "traditionalist."
Emeritus has identified himself as a "progressive."
Again, that is why such right-wing groups such as the SSPX claimed that Joseph Ratzinger poisoned the Faith.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Marc said..."I agree with the SSPX. Ratzinger and Bergoglio aren’t as different as some pretend them to be. Ultimately, they’re both infected with the same poison — Vatican II — only differing in degree (and then not by much)."
Pope Emertius has praised Pope Francis. Emeritus has insisted that his former Pontificate, and Pope Francis' Pontificate, are in harmony with each other.
What Marc said about Emeritus (as well as Pope Francis) and Vatican II is true.
That is, while I reject the idea that Vatican II is a poison, Emeritus Benedict XVI is 100 percent a man of Vatican II.
Joseph Ratzinger has insisted that Vatican II has blessed the Church.
His unrelenting commitment to Vatican II/Novus Ordo is among the reasons as to why it's strange that Mister Nolan has pretended that Emeritus is beloved among "traditionalists."
Joseph Ratzinger has stood in unrelenting support of one thing after another that "traditionalists" have denounced.
-- Vatican II.
-- Novus Ordo.
-- Ecumenical Movement.
-- Environmentalism. (He also declared that climate change is real.)
-- Interreligious dialogue.
-- Liturgical Inculturation.
-- Declared that the Church does not proselytize.
That is a short list of staunch disagreements that "traditionalists" have with Joseph Ratzinger.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Marc, Marc, Marc,
The pope of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Supreme Pontiff. Ecumenical Councils cannot be dismissed as easily as you or the SSPX would like to do and just on what authority in the SSPX are these dismissed, meaning by whom and by what infallibility? Who is the pope of the SSPX in other words if it isn't the current pope of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
What you describe is a new form of Lutheranism, or is it, Calvinism or is it Anglicanism, none of which have had a pope to keep them from their infallibility attributed to their human founders, be it Luther, Calvin or King Henry the VIII.
But then, Marc, you can go the way of Southern Baptists, and be your own infallible interpreter of things, you know, that fierce individualism supported by like minded fierce congregationalism.
All of it PROTESTANT.
John Nolan said..."They are not motivated by diabolical hatred of Pope Francis - that is a product of your fevered imagination and jejune dualistic position..."
Utter nonsense.
Deep hatred of Pope Francis, which they've announced via their blogs/twitter accounts, is widespread among "traditionalists."
Among said folks are those who've implored God to kill His Holiness Pope Francis.
To put it mildly...they hate his guts.
Their hateful opposition to Pope Francis is satanic.
Literally, within seconds of the 2013 A.D. "Habemus papam" announcement, many "traditional" Catholics had taken to the blogosphere/twitter to express their deep hatred of Jorge Bergoglio.
They had spread lies about him within minutes of his appearance on the balcony at Saint Peter's.
They assured us that he hated, and would excommunicate, the SSPX. He hated, and would outlaw, the TLM. He would usher priestesses into the Church. He was a communist. He would impose open Communion during Mass. He planned to usher in an "Ecumenical Mass."
The right-wing's lies against, as well as hatred of, His His Holiness have flowed non-stop since 2013 A.D.
Sorry, Mister Nolan. Such is the work of Satan.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I’ll still stick with the SSPX.
Heck, we are ALL protestant now, with that 'infallible interpreter' of all things Catholic.... I can be in what USED to be an adulterous relationship, and now through my own insight and conscience, determine that I am doing just what God WANTS me to do - that is, stay in the situation. I can build bridges galore among my homosexual buddies. Soon maybe get into a homosexual adulterous situation, fully approved by my fabulously honed conscience.
You see, living currently, while trying to judge NOW, by what WAS Catholic teaching, is so rigid, and probably hides a mental illness, or something.
Just need to watch that littering and recycling.
Mark Thomas
I did not claim anything about the 'right-wing' since the term is meaningless in the context of the Church. I do not use it and I suggested you desist from using it, for reasons I made clear.
I criticized your attempt to characterize Benedict as a progressive modernist simply by making a number of crude generalizations, all of which require qualification. To give some examples:
1. He had reservations concerning Assisi 1 and voiced them. The Assisi gatherings during his pontficate were largely uncontroversial.
2. No-one claims he 'opposed' the Mass of Paul VI. He was critical of the idea that the pope could do what he liked with the liturgy, and condemned spontaneity and creativity, which many supporters of the new Mass set great store by.
3. He praised those aspects of Luther's theology which did not contradict Catholic doctrine, but stopped far short of implying (as Francis has done) that the Reformation was necessary.
4. 'The razing of the Church's bastions.' Meaning precisely what?
5. 'He raised one liberal after another to the rank of bishop.' In point of fact his episcopal appointments in England and Scotland favoured men of a conservative outlook, and he told the English bishops 'to recognize dissent for what it is'.
I could go on, but you should have grasped the point by now - that bland statements of 'fact' can, without qualification, be as misleading as outright lies.
Let me point out that Fr Martin said Francis advised that homosexuals who felt unwelcome in one parish, should just find another. You know, one that is building bridges of acceptance and accompianment.... it's a synodal church now... just shop around till you find the 'right' place... just like protestants... yay... I'm a synod of ONE baby!
Mark Thomas
In the interest of clarity, I should point out to you that I regard myself as a traditional Catholic and have a lot to do with like-minded traditionalists, who include priests, laity (young and old) and those who are passionately interested in Church music, Gregorian chant in particular. In politics I regard myself as a right-winger, although more Rees-Mogg than Boris Johnson.
I have always regarded you as a mildly amusing if somewhat tedious eccentric whose posts reveal someone who suffers from what I hope is a mild form of OCD, manifested in repetitiveness and a bizarre habit of appending A.D. after every year.
I do not spend my leisure time trawling the internet for material to cut-and-paste, and I suspect you don't get out much and meet real people. Otherwise you would not dismiss as 'nonsense' the obvious fact that traditionally-minded Catholics like myself welcomed the election of Benedict XVI in 2005 and regretted his abdication in 2013.
Those who see everything in black-and-white dualistic terms are not likely to appreciate an intellect as subtle as that of Benedict. Your recent posts suggest that in addition to OCD you have psychiatric issues that require addressing. I hope I am wrong.
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