Monday, September 24, 2018


Read an interest July, 2016 article from the Catholic Herald in the UK by pressing the title:
Liberal Catholicism’s unexpected crisis

Commenting on his blog, Fr. Longenecker writes the following which makes me believe that he thinks it is the liberal/progressive/heterodox church that is melting down.

For those who are watching the meltdown of liberal American Catholicism, the drama has a new episode every day. Just when you thought it couldn't get more frightening and bizarre... It does, and Chicago seems to be one of the flash points.

Is he correct?

I've asked before and I'll ask it again, who, or which type of Catholic is going to do better coping and grieving about what our hierarchy and Magisterium has perpetrated over the last 50 to 60 years?

Will it be orthodox, believing Catholics who love the Vatican II Church as it is?

Will it be the liberal/progressive/heterodox church that wants us to go back to the 1970's and constantly "re-imagine" the Church and her sacraments, I mean its sacraments?

Will it be the FSPX crowd who rejects Vatican II and prefers the Council of Trent as the final council so far?

It seems to me that it is the Vatican II version of the Church, or rather, should I say, the Spirit of Vatican II of the cabal of aging 1970's Catholics still banging their so-called Vatican II drums, which is melting down.

Renewal or moving forward in my most humble opinion, as I have written over and over and over again isn't the melting down version of Catholicism promoted by Pope Francis, Cardinals Cupich or Tobin, but the one the Pope Emeritus Benedict promoted. And what is that? Vatican II read through the lens of Renewal in Continuity.

Pope Benedict's liturgical Masgisterium is the way forward as well.


Anonymous said...

I have no idea how to answer your question; I really don’t even know how to judge myself some days!
“The Present Crisis” as Fr. Z calls it, really is pretty complex and new info and case scenarios keep popping up every day. And it’s going to get much worse. Lately I try not to get distracted by all the various explanations, assumptions, recriminations, what ifs. I’m just trying to focus on personal faith in the Mystical Body of Christ and Her power to heal.
Mother Teresa’s sage advice: ““Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”

“My God, I belive, I adore, I hope, and I love you. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.“

TJM said...

There is no one more arrogant or incapable of learning from their mistakes as today's so-called "liberals." You would think with all statistics measuring the vibrancy of Catholicism being in steep decline since Vatican Disaster II, a reasonable person might step back and ask themselves, could we have been wrong?

Victor said...

Fr. Longenecker also writes:

"8. The threat of police action was bad enough, but what about the threat of 'removal to a pastoral center for psychiatric evaluation'? This is the stuff of One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest and the re-education camps of the Gulag. Is this what will happen to anyone who dissents from the gay agenda? That’s what it feels like."

Of course according to the modern psychologists of the APA, you do need psychological assessment if you dissent from the gay agenda.

The more this crisis of sexual abomination is revealed, the more does it become clear that there is much self-interest at the highest levels of the hierarchy of the Church in tolerating homosexuality and its behaviour.

Mark Thomas said...

We need to recall that Pope Benedict XVI was unwavering in the support that he'd given to Vatican II, as well as the Novus Ordo.

As Cardinal Ratzinger, he had painted a bleak picture of the Latin Church's pre-Vatican II liturgical state. He said in 1998 A.D:

"On the other hand, it must be admitted that the celebration of the old liturgy had strayed too far into a private individualism, and that communication between priest and people was insufficient.

"I have great respect for our forefathers who at Low Mass said the "Prayers during Mass" contained in their prayer books, but certainly one cannot consider that as the ideal of liturgical celebration!

"Perhaps these reductionist forms of celebration are the real reason that the disappearance of the old liturgical books was of no importance in many countries and caused no sorrow.

"One was never in contact with the liturgy itself."


The above assessment of Latin Church, TLM liturgy, was bleak. He insisted that when the TLM was in place throughout the Latin Church, that one "was never in contact with the liturgy itself."

In Summorum Pontificum, he said:

"The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often.

"Already from these concrete presuppositions, it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful."

The Novus Ordo is here to stay, according to Pope Benedict XVI.


Mark Thomas

TJM said...


When cutting and pasting today, you forgot some things Pope Benedict had to say about the Novus Ordo:

"I was dismayed by the ban on the old missal,since such a development had never been seen in the history of liturgy. The impression was given that this was completely normal," Cardinal Ratzinger Catholic News Service, August 1997

"One cannot manufacture a liturgical movement ... but one can help contribute to its development by striving to reassimilate the spirit of the liturgy and by defending publicly what one has thus received ... What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it-- as in a manufacturing process -- with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product." Cardinal Josef Ratzinger from the preface of the book "The Reform of the Roman Rite" by Msgr. Klaus Gamber

Nice try.

Victor said...

Mr. Thomas:
Your last quote implies only that the Novus Ordo is here to stay as long as it is lawfully placed to that effect, and that the faithful want it. If the latter no longer applies, then the former will likely be changed too.

All said and done, despite that last quote, Summorum Pontificum had the express purpose of legislating the free availability to all of the EF with few strings attached in addition to allowing the NO as the one most Catholics are familiar with. Why? Because he saw the NO as defective too. The hope was to have some kind of "merging" of the two, but the NO was so poorly thought out by the Consilium, as more and more are recognising, very few want to corrupt the EF with it. Where I live, the only Catholic community that is growing is the EF, while NO churches are steadily being converted for other uses than liturgical, by the way.

TJM said...

The Italian government doesn't appear to be aping PF's left-wing immigration, open border views:

Mark Thomas said...

Victor said..."Where I live, the only Catholic community that is growing is the EF, while NO churches are steadily being converted for other uses than liturgical, by the way."

I guess that you don't live in Africa and Asia. The Church/Novus Ordo is booming throughout Africa and Asia.


Mark Thomas

Paul McCarthy said...

Mark Thomas are you here in Savannah and if so what parish?

Father McDonald I heard from a coworker who’s in your parish you got that great new priest Father Drew Larkin. I remember seeing him serve as the deacon during a cathedral mass before he was ordained and I could tell from his mannerisms during mass he would be a great priest. Protect and keep him save and tell Him he’s in my prayers. All of you good priest need to be prayed for and continuedly protected by Our Blessed Mother from the Queer mafia.

Do you know who the young priest was that did the Latin mass this Sunday. Wife and I lit candles right after mass and so I didn’t get a chance to ask. I don’t call it EF since extraordinary ministers are now ordinary not extra ordinary. To be honest I despise every bit of the Bugnani NO illicit communal gathering.

TJM said...


Why are you dodging Pope Benedict's negative comments on the OF?


Mark Thomas said...

Paul McCarthy said..."Mark Thomas are you here in Savannah and if so what parish?"

I live far away from Savannah.


Mark Thomas

Please read the following about Asia Bibi. Please pray for her.

TJM said...


Still dodging me I see.

Here's something your cut and past machine has opted to ignore:

"One Vatican cardinal, who spoke with Der Spiegel under the condition of anonymity, said of the pontiff: “He preaches mercy, but in reality he is an ice-cold, cunning Machiavellian, and, what is worse – he lies.”

Dan said...

TJM... hilarious!

Victor said...

Mr Thomas:
"I guess that you don't live in Africa and Asia. The Church/Novus Ordo is booming throughout Africa and Asia."

As far as Africa is concerned, that is changing, thanks to young people, some of whom crawl on their knees to receive the blessed sacrament at the TLM. When was the last time you saw that at a NO Mass?

Asia also is gaining. Indeed, there are very few resources around the world, already stretched out, for the TLM after only 11 years of Summorum Pontificum. If Cardinals Zen and Sarah had their way things would change, but who listens to their advice, certainly not Bergolio and company? Because of the hegemonist attitude of the NovoOrdists at the Vatican it is the SSPX that has been gaining considerable ground in those regions.

John Nolan said...

'The Church/Novus Ordo is booming throughout Africa and Asia.' This needs considerable qualification. In only two African countries are Catholics in a majority (Burundi and Equatorial Guinea) and they have very small populations. The most populous African country, Nigeria, is 12.5 per cent Catholic (and 50 per cent Moslem).

Increase in numbers is mainly accounted for by general population increase.

Christianity has little more than a toehold in Asia; only two countries (the Philippines and East Timor) are predominately Catholic. Apart from Sri Lanka (6.1 per cent) and Indonesia (2.9 per cent) the number of Catholics in proportion to the population at large is negligible in Asian countries. Where are the converts who would signal that the Church is 'booming'?

Finally, what's the Novus Ordo got to do with it? The European missionaries converted large numbers of Africans using a Latin liturgy. Given the large number of tribal languages, it was an important unifying factor.

A 'booming' Church should be making lots of converts, but this isn't happening.

Henry said...

“Vatican II read through the lens of Renewal in Continuity.”

It seems unlikely that renewal of the Church or restoration of Catholic faith will get anywhere so long as we’re still trying to “read Vatican II” one way or the other, still taking Vatican II as some sort of obligatory point of reference, still trying to realize good fruit in the produce of a council that produced only fruit that ranged from rotten to simply out of joint with its time.

It seems unrealistic to expect real restoration from top to bottom before the Church is free of the generations of priests and bishops trained in the seminaries of the two or three decades immediately following this most recent council. This should be the case by 2040 or 2050.

In the meantime, it seems to me a waste of time to argue about the attitudes of recent popes towards Vatican II. All their efforts, despite whatever good intentions, have been handicapped (or doomed) by inability to shake free of the influence of a misbegotten council.

DJR said...

John Nolan said... "Apart from Sri Lanka (6.1 per cent) and Indonesia (2.9 per cent) the number of Catholics in proportion to the population at large is negligible in Asian countries."

Lebanon is 26% Catholic.

If one considers South Korea a separate country from North Korea, Catholics make up about 8% of the population there.

Some people consider Papua New Guinea to be part of Asia (but others don't). In any event, it is 25% Catholic.

Vietnam is approximately 7% Catholic.

TJM said...


Very well said. Vatican II is the golden calf of many clerics. I guess the Church came into being in 1962 and everything heretofore, meaningless.

DJR said...

John Nolan said..."In only two African countries are Catholics in a majority (Burundi and Equatorial Guinea) and they have very small populations."

Rwanda and Angola are majority Catholic.

John Nolan said...

Angola: 41.1 per cent; Rwanda 43.7 per cent. The figure for Angola could be higher. In Rwanda since the 1994 genocide it is the Protestant sects which have secured the most conversions, often at the expense of the Catholic Church.

I have not counted the Middle East or Australasia as being Asiatic.