They've won barring any miracle of God. The chasm between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Ordinary Form of the Mass celebrated in most parishes is so great and the laity so imbued and appreciative of a Protestant ethos in the Mass, I doubt a return to Catholic sensibilities will happen in my life time.
Most Catholics today love the following:
The Protestant horizontal over the Catholic vertical
Protestant fellowship and conversation in the church over Catholic silence and piety directed to God
The Protestant sound and devotional, spiritual qualities of hymns over authentic Catholic Chant
The cult of the personality of ministers and congregants over the exclusive worship of Christ
The use and corruption of the Mass/Liturgy as a vehicle to promote and celebrate human accomplishments
Protestant casualness and triteness over Catholic formality, precision and reverence
Shall I go on?
19 comments:
If a Catholic believes and worships like a Protestant, is he still a Catholic?
Instead of attacking and sliming conservative priest's like Father Phillips, "cardinal" Cupich should focus on re-Catholicizing in the Archdiocese Latinos converting to Islam:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/latinos-converting-to-islam-chicago-elsewhere-spanish-religion/
Fahter Phillips has been successful, "cardinal" Cupich is a real sore loserman
The current occupant of the Vatican and the goings on by the German bishops, makes me think it's getting MUCH worse.
The culture has influenced the Church more than the Church has influenced the culture. I blame the hierarchy.
Sadly I have no doubt that they'll be pushing the idea that the real presence in in the community of believers.
Anyway, it feels like my entire identity has been destroyed by these "shepherds."
Catholic liturgical theology is both horizontal and vertical.
Catholic worship is both reverence toward God and fellowship toward others in the pew with you.
Catholic's worship with devotional music and chant.
A personable priest does not interfere with the "exclusive worship of Christ" which, it might be said, seems to leave out worship of the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Catholics who worship in casual attire can be and often are as reverent as those who show up in formal evening wear.
Go on, but go on with sense.
FMJK:
Self-justify, but self-justify with sense.
What/who takes precedence in Catholic worship, God or me?
FMJK, one more thought from the same anon:
I am not trying to deny the power and healing good horizontal community brings to the “table”. Indeed, when it’s missing, we humans suffer—I have suffered lack of it in my parish. But true worship is a different thing. Yes, we worship together (hopefully!). But who we worship, and how we worship makes all the difference. Otherwise we are a prayer group focused on us and our needs, with some upbeat contemporary music. I have nothing against prayer groups, I belong to one. But we shouldn’t confuse it with transcendent worship of the sublime, triune Holy of Holies.
Thank you
Fr K:
"Catholic liturgical theology is both horizontal and vertical."
You cannot have both without one watering down the other to some extent. The traditional Mass is so vertical that even the sermon is not considered part of it, why there is a custom for the priest to remove his liturgical maniple if he does the sermon. If you want horizontal assembly, join the Lions club; they can do the horizontal so well.
"Catholics worship with devotional music and chant."
I do not hear much devotional music and chant at Novus Ordo Masses. It is about the people, what they like, which is usually based on the godless music styles of godless society. The godless music speaks to them so they can participate in a godless way in the liturgy.
"Catholic worship is both reverence toward God and fellowship toward others in the pew with you."
Catholic worship is about worshiping God, period. Fellowship is what happens outside the liturgy, walking in love (Ephesians 5:2), with the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, to change the world by having people commit themselves to the Christ.
"A personable priest does not interfere with the 'exclusive worship of Christ'...."
A personable priest in the liturgy is an oxymoron because the priest is meant to be no other than in persona Christi, no person of his own. That is near impossible in ad populum worship.
"Catholics who worship in casual attire can be and often are as reverent as...." When you meet the King of the Universe in casual attire, maybe you do not really believe he is a King. It shows disrespect to divine Royalty.
Father McDonald , as I read your post, I cannot help but wonder what prompted it. Many possibilities come to mind:
1). A disagreement with the chancery in which someone with authority cannot grasp the obvious?
2). A discussion with a parishioner--most likely an older one--who cannot get out of his/her 70's mindset?
3). Another day of reading Catholic news and the obvious temptation to despair over the deplorable state of the Church?
4). The healing effect of the EF and how it has sharpened your senses?
Maybe it was something else?
All I can say is, YOU GET IT. And when you write, "barring a miracle from God..."--well, don't bar one. He's provided plenty of them over the years and the gates of Hell shall not prevail over his Church, no matter how many times the Church is on the ropes.
The silliness, folly and error of our current age will end. When? That's up to Him. But make no mistake, IT WILL END.
Not all Protestant worship is 'casual and trite'. The classic Anglican liturgy according to the BCP is dignified, objective and God-centred. Where we have 1962, they have 1662.
The 11 a.m. Solemn Latin OF Mass at the London Oratory attracts a large number of overseas visitors, many of them from North America. Their reaction can be gauged by their on-line comments and what some of them have said to me - the general tenor is 'Wow, this is awesome'.
Yes, it's a far cry from what prevails in most parishes, but to assume that the small minority of Catholics who still attend Mass love a Protestant style of worship is stretching it. Many are indeed unaware that there is an alternative.
Victor has the definitive statement on this post-Vat II mentality above. God save us from more Priests like Kavanaugh.
Gene,
Kavanaugh is a Democrat operative masquerading as a priest.
John Nolan,
I was fortunate to have attended Mass at the Brompton Oratory and was totally awestruck, and it was the Novus Ordo!!!
In Chicago, we have St. John Cantius, which unfortunately is under attack by the forces of evil in the Archdiocese
Cletus, the biggest problem with the OF Mass that it is used for a platform for which the Mass isn't meant to be used--to celebrate people, be they clergy or laity, or causes, be they worthy or not.
Ordination Masses, Weddings, anniversary Masses are used as platforms to highlight the one being celebrated not the true purpose of Mass.
For example, in the EF Mass, there would not be the opportunity to have additional secular aspects in this Mass, recognition of the clergy or laity--that would take place after Mass in an appropriate auditorium or reception setting. In theses celebrations today, all the accolades and praise for clergy or laity celebrating milestones occurs not only at a reception but during the Mass too and sometimes ad nauseam!
Father, you are preaching to the choir.
I absolutely cannot stand applause at Mass and almost every week, no matter where I go, it seems as if we are presented with something to applaud. I probably look like a mean person because I hold my hands in prayer and look down while everyone does their Hollywood thing.
Among the biggest offenders in this category are BISHOPS. ANY time a bishop appears in a parish, whether as a guest or for a Confirmation ceremony, you can virtually guarantee that either the bishop will call upon someone for special recognition, inviting applause or someone in the parish will invite everyone to "thank" the bishop for being there.
As our retired pope wrote in The Spirit of the Liturgy:
"Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. "
Looks like that fell upon deaf ears at the USCCB.
"Catholic liturgical theology is both horizontal and vertical. You cannot have both without one watering down the other to some extent."
I don't believe that is necessarily the case, Victor. In fact, I think that that duality is built in to the liturgy as intended by God. We have others that exist in creative tension: God/Man Sinner/Justified One Person/Two Natures.
"Catholics worship with devotional music and chant. I do not hear much devotional music and chant at Novus Ordo Masses."
I do.
"Catholic worship is about worshiping God, period."
No it's not. Period.
"A personable priest in the liturgy is an oxymoron because the priest is meant to be no other than in persona Christi, no person of his own." Allan McDonald is acting in persona Christi. Michael Kavanaugh is acting in persona Christi. Pope Francis is acting in persona Christi. He is "other" by his human nature and that human nature is not obliterated by ordination. (If it is, then there is no ordination since the human ceases to exist.)
"When you meet the King of the Universe in casual attire, maybe you do not really believe he is a King."
I will be happy to meet the King of the Universe is whatever attire I have on. And the King of the Universe, since He is not Victor, won't care.
"Cletus, the biggest problem with the OF Mass that it is used for a platform for which the Mass isn't meant to be used--to celebrate people, be they clergy or laity, or causes, be they worthy or not."
Yes, it can be. But that's not a problem with the NO liturgy per se.
Fr K.
Thank you for your response. There is really nothing for me to respond to, however, because we disagree in our fundamental presuppositions, illustrating the undeclared schism in the Church. As the schism intensifies, hopefully the proud will listen to the Holy Spirit so a proper Council will be called to sort out this mess unambiguous language in its anathemas.
Victor,
I am not so sure that another Ecumenical Council is something to wish for, especially with the low quality bishops the Church is plagued with today.
Instead, I think we need to take Vatican II for what it truly was: A "pastoral" Council (whatever that was supposed to mean) which imposed NO anathemas upon those who won't follow it to the letter, thereby essentially making it a toothless display. Sadly, never have we see so many billions of dollars wasted and so many souls lost or imperiled for such a useless Council.
A correction will come. If Fatima, Akita, La Salette, Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser, St. Anna Katerina Emmerich, and a host of other saintly visionaries are correct, we are just about at the end of this empty, faithless, stinking epoch. Something very ugly is about to happen. When it is over with, something very wonderful will restore our empty shell of a Church.
Victor - There is no undeclared schism in the Church.
There's plenty in my response that you could, if you chose, respond to. You have chosen not to do so.
One clarification I should make. "Catholic worship is about worshiping God, period. No it's not. Period." should read, "Catholic worship is about worshiping God, period. No it's not 'only' about worshipping God. Period."
Fr K:
"There is no undeclared schism in the Church." Yes there is, and the Church is suffering because of the internal divisions.
"I think that that duality is built in to the liturgy as intended by God." I do not. It is either God or Nothing.
"No it's not. Period." (that Catholic worship is about worshiping God, period.) Yes it is. Period.
That you hear much devotional music and chant is interesting, but I certainly do not except at Latin Mass parishes. Can you give me an example of post-Vatican II devotional music?
"Allan McDonald is acting in persona Christi...etc" The topic is the liturgy, principally the Sacrifice of the Mass, not being Christ-like which everyone must strive to be at every moment of one's life.
"I will be happy to meet the King of the Universe is whatever attire I have on...." Again, the context is the liturgy. We can meet God in prayer and silence anywhere. The liturgy is a formal event devoted solely to God. If you had been invited to the White House to meet the former President, would you not have selected appropriate attire for the occasion? Not having done so would have insulted not only the President, but his office. These are signs and symbols which convey meaning non-verbally.
Victor - The Church has always suffered from internal divisions. These do not amount to schism.
Dualism is the liturgy intended by God: the use of natural elements, bread and wine, that become the Body and Blood of Jesus without losing their natural accidents. The use of the natural human voice of the priest to proclaim the supernatural words of the Gospel. The natural sounds of the bells to point to the supernatural transformation of the elements into the Body and Blood of Jesus. And others...
How would you define "devotional music?"
The liturgy is not devoted solely to God. The mass is our participation in the sacrifice of Jesus to his Father. From that sacrifice we receive the gift of salvation. Having received that gift, we are to be transformed and take what we have received into the world. "Go in peace, glorifying the Lord by your life" is about us.
A priest can be Christ-like in the liturgy without erasing his personality.
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