Protestants are losing more members to the "nones" than Catholics but Catholics are losing too, just not as many. There are more nones in the USA than Catholics and more Protestant Hispanics than Catholic ones.
What to do? What to do? O what are we to do?
Liberalism drives Hispanic Catholics away because a Protestantized Catholicism in terms of music and devotions is never as good as the inventors of these thing, Protestants, in particular Pentecostal Protestants. Once Catholicism went Pentecostal (charismatic) and syncretism with this brand of fundamentalism was acceptable, we were bound to lose Catholics to authentic Pentecostal Protestants who are normally morally and politically conservative.
Do you think Protestant Pentecostals in Central and South America like the idea of a graven image of a naked pregnant woman the center of a display of stuff to facilitate prayer and worship. Thank you Amazon synod for confirming the reason why Catholics there are now Protestant. We will see even more jumping ship to Pentecostal Protestantism in the Amazon.
And when liberalism in the USA is syncretized with Catholicism, we see progressive Catholics demanding so much of secular liberalism be brought into parish life and Church teaching, like abortion on demand to the end of pregnancy and first few days of birth, same sex marriage and gender ideology, female ordination and ordination of the variety of sexual identities of the LBTGQ agenda, not to mention that we can be miracle workers to eliminate the terminal nature of human life and the earth that supports it. There is denial concerning the fact that the earth is terminal just as is each human being and every creature.
But then these Catholics who sycretize with secularism see no reason to even be Catholic or Christian because the Church always has people who want orthodoxy, so they join the nones.
Wouldn't it be best just to be Catholic and stop trying to enforce a Cafeteria Catholicism and make that dogma which it seems like the agenda of the current papal magisterium? And in this cafeteria the only ones being castigated are those with a strong Catholic identity who are now called rigid fundamentalists, the new "N" word for progressive Catholics who simply used to call us "so pre-Vatican II!
18 comments:
Where the Faith is being taught, there's an increase...My parish in the UK Is growing...No liberal crazy things, just the Faith preached and lived in the love of neighbour. We're also blessed to have Vladyka at the parish.
Cary Nieuwhof, a non-denominational pastor and founder of Connexus Churches, writes about why even committed church attenders attend less often. He cites:
1. Greater Affluence - Money gives people options
2. Higher focus on kids' activities
3. More travel
4. Blended and single parent families
5. Online option
6. The cultural disappearance of guilt
7. Self-directed spirituality
8. Failure to see a direct benefit - do they get value for their investment?
9. Valuing attendance over engagement
10. A massive culture shift
He notes that these influences are being felt across denominational lines. The too common response is "We are doing something wrong, so people don't come anymore." That might mean to some "We don't celebrate the EF mass" or "We don't have a guitar group for the youngsters" or "We talk about money too much" or "The preacher is dull" or etc etc etc.
It's not always something we do or don't do that causes people to drift away. For a variety of reasons, people will do what people will do and there's nothing we can do to prevent that.
Our task is to be faithful, to love God and neighbor, to be "public" with our faith, and to allow God's Spirit to work.
Article link: https://careynieuwhof.com/10-reasons-even-committed-church-attenders-attending-less-often/
It was apparent a long time ago that the bishops were concerned about market share and cash flow. They needed to have lots of people attending to get money and keep their favourite charities and functions operating. They softened the delivery and enforcement of God’s Law to keep those numbers up. All in the name of Charity under several meanings. As a result, and perhaps intentionally, Christianity and Catholicism became merely options and alternative ways to execute a ‘good’ life in this world. The inversion of worship, placings worldly desires and even needs, above the will of God is falling short and, of course, always will. When we return to our rightful place in creation we will be delighted to find how little we will want for.
Fr. (no sweet pickle, please) McDonald starts in the right direction ad orientem and kneeling to receive. I recommend the bishops encourage that and reintroduce abstinence from meat on Fridays. If they have a spine they would also call for the Rosary on Friday. If the have a brain they would do it in Latin.
Kavanaugh shares a nice list of excuses for the abject failure that is Vatican Disaster II. It deflects responsibility for the hierarchy's failures. Sorry, no sale. When the Mass became a group hug instead of worship of Our Lord, people simply accepted the subliminal message being sent by the hierarchy and obliged them by finding more important things to do on Sunday. And under PF's "leadership" things are getting worse.
I think what Fr. Kavanaugh says is right. There is a larger cultural shift happening at present. It’s not all about Vatican II. That much is evident by the collapse in attendance amongst all strains of Christianity.
What some people fail to recognize, or what they willfully overlook, is that the declines in Church attendance cut across denominational lines. If the declines were only impacting the Catholic Church since Vatican II, then the issues would be ours and no one else's.
In fact, they are not particular to church or mosque or synagogue or temple attendance at all. The declines are reported in many voluntary membership groups including KofC, Rotary, Jaycees, Sertoma, Lions, etc.
What many of the denominations and organizations have in common is that they are dedicated to service to members and to the larger community. When people feel no connection to a community or a locality as has become the case in much of Western society, it becomes very hard for them to feel a sense of obligation to that community. Therefore, groups - churches or other - that are devoted to service see a drop-off.
I would suspect that the same reasons Nieuwhof suggests for declines in church attendance are very much at play in the other organizations as well.
Yes, it is true that religion in general is on the decline and for numerous factors most having to do with irrelevancy and what FRMJK and Marc write.
Bottom line is a loss of faith. But what is substituting this? It is secularism and for puritanical Americans who have a tendency in true religion to be narrow and dogmatic, this narrowness and dogmatism if not down right rigidity is transferred to this progressive secularism which is more dogmatic than Catholicism or Puritanism every was.
That's why we have the PC Police and everyone has to watch their back and free speech or they'll come after you with a dogmatic vengeance.
The problem with Catholic nones, apart from the loss of faith is that post-Vatican II Catholicism is such a smorgasbord of options allowing for damnable new term of Gnosticism, seeking new paths. The loss of Catholic identity and any authentic foundation in Divine Truth is washed away by relativism which is what this new secular religion is that is so dogmatic.
For those of us who stay Catholic, we need to be as dogmatic about our Truths as the secularists and we need to emphasize above all, not the salvation of planet earth which is passing away with everyone who lives on it, but the salvation of our souls in anticipation for the Last Judgement at the consummation of the world!
The four last things need emphasizing today, more than even, death judgement, heaven and hell. When's the last time you heard that in an Ordinary Form parish or from the progressive cabal of clerics we have in Rome and everywhere today?
Some 'faiths' are growing. For instance Islam and the cult of Santa Muerte. I just checked and beautiful statues of Sante Muerte are available at Walmart(dot)com.
I'd be worried if I didn't know now that it's God's will.
Emphasizing death, judgment, heaven, and hell will not impact the radical individualism that is prevalent, even predominant, in our society.
Providing opportunities for people to make a real connection with Jesus and with others is what will make the church attractive. People need to re-learn that we do not exist for ourselves, but for others, that we are not religious in order to save our own souls, but we are faithful for the salvation of the world.
Nieuwhof makes these suggestions about how to encourage people to be part of a congregation:
1. Create a powerful online presence. (Like it or not, good or bad, this is where younger people begin and end their days. If "we" are not there, they won't see us.)
2. Elevate personal relationships. (A relationship with Jesus is a relationship with the Church - he is the head, we are the body. "Come here because we celebrate mass in Latin" won't work.)
3. Love people. (Teach them, feed them, house them, visit them in prison, clothe those who are naked, comfort those who mourns - we've heard this somewhere before...)
4. Create an irresistible experience. (Or we might say, celebrate a mass that makes people want to be there with good music, good preaching, good liturgy, hospitality, etc.)
5. Create a culture of serving. (There it is, offer people a chance to be responsible to the local community. Today, that is a highly counter-cultural movement in a radically individualized society.
6. Prioritize kids and teens. (Or, to be crass, get them while they're young.)
I don't think it is a "loss of faith" or a loss of identity. I think people still have, and always will have, a desire to "rest in God" as Augustine put it. The divine spark isn't extinguished any more than the "imago dei" that marks every human ever born.
The nones are staying and more will leave because even if we do all the things you suggest and I am doing, we don't ordain women or LGBTQ variations on sexual identity, we don't allow for pro-choice ideologies and we are slow to the green movement and not radical enough, we don't allow same sex marriage and we hold up chastity in marriage and outside of marriage. This is what the nones want. And most don't want to be bothered by their neighbors. I live in a regular kind of upper middle class neighborhood in Richmond Hill and sometimes I feel like it is a movie set as no one is outside and visiting each other. They prefer facebook and other media ways of connecting but not the human touch which they fear.
should have written "The nones are not staying and more will leave..."
So rcg concludes by saying "if bishops have a brain..." Really? Is that the type of statement that is going to convince a bishop of your viewpoint? And TJM refers to the "Vatican 2 disaster". Well, here in 30327, the A of A (the state's "other diocese"), there were about 30,000 Catholics when Vatican 2 started and over a million today. That is what the "disaster" has brought us.
Even Southern Baptists are losing members, and of course the "not so" mainline ones continue to lose too---like the Episcopal Church, half of what it was 50 years ago. I noticed in an annual report, the Savannah-based Episcopal Diocese of Georgia claims only about 14,000 members, down from previously already low numbers. No matter who their bishop is, the numbers keep dropping (maybe a reason their current one is retiring next spring).
While I don't much care for Trump, perhaps he was the result of the radical secular agenda of the Obama Administration---conservatives finally rose up after 8 years of secular humanism. All the more reason we need to ensure no Democrat is elected president next year!
Bee here:
Wikipedia states, "Religion ... is a distinct moral virtue whose purpose is to render God the worship due to Him as the source of all being and the giver of all good things. As such it is part of the cardinal virtue of Justice, and falls under obedience to the First Commandment."
Catholics (and maybe for all religions) used to emphasize that we OWED God worship. It was not optional. So what happened to the occasional reminders from the pulpit that attending Mass for the purpose of worshiping God was not optional? Did that go out with Vatican II too? Maybe Fr. McD's other post, "WHEN THE PRIEST CELEBRATING THE MASS BECOMES LIKE A TALK SHOW HOST!" has something to do with it. Not much worship of God in that sort of "celebration."
God bless,
Bee
"Come here because we celebrate mass in Latin" won't work"
https://forums.catholic.com/t/annual-census-shows-prolific-growth-at-fssp-parishes/571836
Fr. Allan J. McDonald said... we are slow to the green movement.
The Catholic Church shouldn't even be associated with the pro abortion 'green movement'. in any way, shape or form. Stop with the seamless garment nonsense.
Allan, if no one is outside visiting, maybe it falls to you to organize your neighborhood get-together.
I am well aware that many nones have left because they do not accept what a church teaches. But that does not lessen our responsibility to do what we can to draw them back or to draw others in. The solution many seem to offer is "Circle the Wagons, Batten the Hatches, Do What We Did 100 Years Ago" and that will fulfill our obligations. It won't. It won't fulfill our obligation and it won't bring people back.
I'm not satisfied with the Benedict Option, a quasi-monastic Catholic existence in a post-Obergfell society. To me that seems to be entirely too inward-looking, too much focused on maintenance and not nearly enough on mission. No one is forcing us into catacombs, and choosing to retreat into them is almost cowardly, it seems to me.
I think you are very wrong about nones wanting nothing to do with neighbors. Built into every one of us is an undeniable desire to be connected, to be a part of a community. What we have to make evident is that it is in a church that these connections can be made in a life-changing way, in a way that social media, while entertaining, can't achieve. It's hard work, to be sure, but it is the work we were given.
Anonymous 3:45 - Trump was elected because people like the way he behaves and they know that they can't (and shouldn't) behave as he does. They were and are drawn to his vulgarity, his bombast and bluster, his self-proclaimed invulnerability, when they know that it is wrong to be vulgar, to be a braggart, and deny the weaknesses and vulnerabilities we all have by virtue of Original Sin.
The memetic desire - to have or to be what he has or is - drove them to him like moths to a flame.
Trump is playing a role and playing the press and nation like a fiddle. He personifies Championship wrestling which everyone knows is fake but love to believe it is real. Trump is a wrestler and his fans are the same as wrestling fans.
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