So, I decide to display these three icons in a side chapel of my church and use them in a prayer service for our country. How would you feel if a fellow Catholic came in and filmed himself taking them and throwing them into the river?
18 comments:
Dan
said...
I dont care about 'feelings.' No priest, cleric, nun, Catholic, non-Christian can read the Bible without getting the feeling that for some reason false gods and idols weren't supposed to be worshipped. Including if a group was making nationalism into an idol.
They are not holy and have nothing to do with the Church or the Faith so it probably wouldn't affect me much. I might be worried about you if you had a speckle fetted nutty over them going missing.
They are not gods nor representations of a god. We have a statue of Our Lady of the Rosary on the side altar. I really like it and it means a lot to me, it is inspiring and lifts my Heart to the Queen of Heaven. But Mary is not a god; I do not worship her and would be at risk of hellfire to do so. If some misguided SOB broke in and vandalized it I would mess him up if I caught him. But the dear statue is just a rock carved into a shape that helps me mentally focus on our Holy Mother. Perhaps it is in my favour that I don’t worship a rock or a river and that I know that.
As long as you don't refer to the Statue of Liberty as representing the Mother of God everything would be fine. No one who pilfered these types of things would be making any kind of statement of philosophical or religious significance other than possibly being unpatriotic.
If I remember correctly the Statue of Liberty is an anti-Catholic deity used by the French to mock Catholics and their Mass. It was placed in tabernacles and replaced the crucifix . It should not be in a Catholic Church. Uncle Sam is an American flag in the form of an idol; both represent American ideals and values. I don’t think national flags are allowed in the sanctuary,though folded flags are frequently presented on memorial or Veterans Day. Flag allowed in church? Probably, but not in the sanctuary. A statue of Uncle Sam? Definitely not. Do I have the right to toss them into the Mississippi River? No, but I can write the bishop or Pope.
On a related topic, how should we regard the trial and faith-based defenses (disallowed by the judge), currently underway in Brunswick, Georgia, of those who broke into a naval base to protest the possession and potential use of nuclear weapons:
Please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater and dismiss the issue because of the source in which the case is reported. And to aid in thinking this through, suppose they broke into an abortion facility.
The concept of idolatry makes its appearance in the report.
As so often is the case, the answer is, "it depends..."
If I saw people outside the church beforehand, having some sort of prayer ritual, and they were gathered around, and bowing down to, any of those symbols -- yeah, I'd have a problem with that.
If someone described any of those symbols as an image of a saint -- as people claimed the image of the pregnant woman an image of Mary -- then, yes, I'd have a problem.
If these images in the Church were treated in any way as sacred or pertaining to holy things -- as opposed to something obviously secular -- then, yes, I'd have a problem.
As it happens, I am not a fan of having the U.S. flag displayed too prominently in church. Outside? No problem. In the vestibule? No problem. In the nave? Not my favorite thing. In the sanctuary? I would move it, at least to the periphery. And I'm not sure I'd have an Uncle Sam poster anywhere, but I suppose if it were about something non-political, say like donating blood or even buying war bonds, circa WWII, I think I'd be fine with that. And the statue of liberty? It's hard to see why that would even be in church -- so give me more context, and I'll give you my answer. I don't have any problem with "culturally appropriating" this symbol of America from any anti-Catholic past, since I am confident virtually no one today sees Lady Liberty that way.
Why, what an honor to have the top picture being Atlanta's "high-church" Peachtree Road United Methodist Church!. Yes, they drape the American flag across the front of their old church on the 4th of July, and passing in front of it that day is our Peachtree Road Race, where 60,000 compete in oppressive humidity to win a t-shirt. Peachtree Road UMC is considered "high-church" (by Methodist standards) as the clergy wear robes, there is a central altar (and a back one too), and they have processionals. Now if they could go from having communion on just the first Sunday of the month to maybe just...two?!?
We have both the papal and American flag in our sanctuary in 30327. I don't see an problem with displaying both. And in front of the adjoining school, we fly both flags (but not the Georgia one for some reason---maybe because of its Confederate roots?!?)
I have never seen anyone bow down to any of these and worship them. It would be wrong to call Lady Liberty "Our Lady of the USA" and to call Uncle Sam an "American Jesus". It was very wrong for an Incan Pachamama idol to be called Our Lady of the Amazon in an effort to get the Catholic Church to venerate a pagan idol.
Anonymous2, if they broke into an abortion facility or entered one causing a disturbance they could be arrested and charged and this has happened. In cases I have read about, the defendants have not had to serve much time, and in some cases no time behind bars at all, with only a fine imposed. Whoever trespasses on a military installation where nuclear weapons are stored however, is going to face much more serious charges and if convicted a more severe sentence and should be prepared to take the consequences. The military services take these things very seriously as they should. As far as facing decades in prison though, I would surprised if that happened.
Following three days of hearings, a man with connections to a local anti-choice group was sentenced on Thursday to five years in prison for vandalizing a Kalispell, Montana reproductive health-care facility in 2014.
After a three day sentencing hearing, the case involving the vandalism and closing of the Flathead Valley’s only clinic to provide abortions came to an end today.
Twenty four year-old Zachary Klundt received a 20-year sentence with 15 years suspended for destroying All Families Healthcare clinic in Kalispell. Klundt will also pay the clinics’ owner, Susan Cahill and other victims over 600,000 dollars in restitution.
So Anonymous @ 8:24 found an incident where someone in Montana vandalized an abortion clinic five years ago. Could you not find something more recent? And being that the perpetrator was sentenced to five years, it might be an indication that he committed some serious vandalism. Are we to glean from this incident an indication of what would be a proper sentence for the Plowshares group? If only that group had been a little more balanced in their acts of moral outrage by doing at some abortion facility what they did at Kings Bay. At least they would be acting against a facility where there was actual human life being snuffed out, while at the same time not doing harm to anyone except themselves.
18 comments:
I dont care about 'feelings.' No priest, cleric, nun, Catholic, non-Christian can read the Bible without getting the feeling that for some reason false gods and idols weren't supposed to be worshipped. Including if a group was making nationalism into an idol.
Really simple.
I would cheer.
They are not holy and have nothing to do with the Church or the Faith so it probably wouldn't affect me much. I might be worried about you if you had a speckle fetted nutty over them going missing.
They are not gods nor representations of a god. We have a statue of Our Lady of the Rosary on the side altar. I really like it and it means a lot to me, it is inspiring and lifts my Heart to the Queen of Heaven. But Mary is not a god; I do not worship her and would be at risk of hellfire to do so. If some misguided SOB broke in and vandalized it I would mess him up if I caught him. But the dear statue is just a rock carved into a shape that helps me mentally focus on our Holy Mother. Perhaps it is in my favour that I don’t worship a rock or a river and that I know that.
As long as you don't refer to the Statue of Liberty as representing the Mother of God
everything would be fine. No one who pilfered these types of things would be making any kind of statement of philosophical or religious significance other than possibly
being unpatriotic.
That would be vandalism:(
If I remember correctly the Statue of Liberty is an anti-Catholic deity used by the French to mock Catholics and their Mass. It was placed in tabernacles and replaced the crucifix . It should not be in a Catholic Church. Uncle Sam is an American flag in the form of an idol; both represent American ideals and values. I don’t think national flags are allowed in the sanctuary,though folded flags are frequently presented on memorial or Veterans Day. Flag allowed in church? Probably, but not in the sanctuary. A statue of Uncle Sam? Definitely not. Do I have the right to toss them into the Mississippi River? No, but I can write the bishop or Pope.
On a related topic, how should we regard the trial and faith-based defenses (disallowed by the judge), currently underway in Brunswick, Georgia, of those who broke into a naval base to protest the possession and potential use of nuclear weapons:
https://www.thenation.com/article/antinuclear-activists-trial-georgia/
Please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater and dismiss the issue because of the source in which the case is reported. And to aid in thinking this through, suppose they broke into an abortion facility.
The concept of idolatry makes its appearance in the report.
As so often is the case, the answer is, "it depends..."
If I saw people outside the church beforehand, having some sort of prayer ritual, and they were gathered around, and bowing down to, any of those symbols -- yeah, I'd have a problem with that.
If someone described any of those symbols as an image of a saint -- as people claimed the image of the pregnant woman an image of Mary -- then, yes, I'd have a problem.
If these images in the Church were treated in any way as sacred or pertaining to holy things -- as opposed to something obviously secular -- then, yes, I'd have a problem.
As it happens, I am not a fan of having the U.S. flag displayed too prominently in church. Outside? No problem. In the vestibule? No problem. In the nave? Not my favorite thing. In the sanctuary? I would move it, at least to the periphery. And I'm not sure I'd have an Uncle Sam poster anywhere, but I suppose if it were about something non-political, say like donating blood or even buying war bonds, circa WWII, I think I'd be fine with that. And the statue of liberty? It's hard to see why that would even be in church -- so give me more context, and I'll give you my answer. I don't have any problem with "culturally appropriating" this symbol of America from any anti-Catholic past, since I am confident virtually no one today sees Lady Liberty that way.
Why, what an honor to have the top picture being Atlanta's "high-church" Peachtree Road United Methodist Church!. Yes, they drape the American flag across the front of their old church on the 4th of July, and passing in front of it that day is our Peachtree Road Race, where 60,000 compete in oppressive humidity to win a t-shirt. Peachtree Road UMC is considered "high-church" (by Methodist standards) as the clergy wear robes, there is a central altar (and a back one too), and they have processionals. Now if they could go from having communion on just the first Sunday of the month to maybe just...two?!?
We have both the papal and American flag in our sanctuary in 30327. I don't see an problem with displaying both. And in front of the adjoining school, we fly both flags (but not the Georgia one for some reason---maybe because of its Confederate roots?!?)
Book: "American Jesus - How the Son of God Became a National Icon" Stephen Prothero
I have never seen anyone bow down to any of these and worship them. It would be wrong to call
Lady Liberty "Our Lady of the USA" and to call Uncle Sam an "American Jesus". It was very wrong for an Incan Pachamama idol to be called Our Lady of the Amazon in an effort to get the Catholic Church to venerate a pagan idol.
Anonymous2, if they broke into an abortion facility or entered one causing a disturbance they could be arrested and charged and this has happened. In cases I have read about, the defendants have not had to serve much time, and in some cases no time behind bars at all, with only a fine imposed.
Whoever trespasses on a military installation where nuclear weapons are stored however, is going to face much more serious charges and if convicted a more severe sentence and should be prepared to take the consequences. The military services take these things very seriously as they should. As far as facing decades in prison though, I would surprised if that happened.
Following three days of hearings, a man with connections to a local anti-choice group was sentenced on Thursday to five years in prison for vandalizing a Kalispell, Montana reproductive health-care facility in 2014.
After a three day sentencing hearing, the case involving the vandalism and closing of the Flathead Valley’s only clinic to provide abortions came to an end today.
Twenty four year-old Zachary Klundt received a 20-year sentence with 15 years suspended for destroying All Families Healthcare clinic in Kalispell. Klundt will also pay the clinics’ owner, Susan Cahill and other victims over 600,000 dollars in restitution.
Father McDonald,
Are you trying to trigger our resident lefties with these pics?
No, TJM, Father McDonald is trying to trigger reflection and critical thinking. You do remember critical thinking, don’t you?
So Anonymous @ 8:24 found an incident where someone in Montana vandalized an abortion clinic five years ago. Could you not find something more recent? And being that the perpetrator was sentenced to five years, it might be an indication that he committed some serious vandalism.
Are we to glean from this incident an indication of what would be a proper sentence for the Plowshares group? If only that group had been a little more balanced in their acts of moral outrage by doing at some abortion facility what they did at Kings Bay.
At least they would be acting against a facility where there was actual human life being snuffed out, while at the same time not doing harm to anyone except themselves.
Post a Comment