On the first anniversary of 9/11, I was a part of a group of ecumenical ministers who planned an inter-faith prayer service held in Augusta in former Catholic Church, now called Sacred Heart Cultural Center.
In keeping with Catholic sensibilities, no one was asked to join any particular group in verbally praying anything. All songs were agreed upon and usually quite generic. I think we had Christians, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant, Muslims, Hindu and Jewish and maybe one or two others.
Each representative prayed in their religious tradition. We had no pagans, though, although Wiccans are big in Augusta.
But now the Italian Bishops' Conference printed this in a brochure and yes it is outrageous:
Translation of Prayer to Pachamama:
Pachamama of these places,
drink and eat as much as you like this offer,
so that this land may be fruitful.
Pachamama, good Mother
Be propitious! Be propitious!
Let the oxen walk well,
and that one does not drink.
Make the seed taste good,
that nothing bad happens to her,
that frost does not disrupt it,
that produces good food i.
We ask you:
give us all.
Be propitious! Be propitious!
(Prayer to the Mother Earth of the Inca peoples)
32 comments:
Would Bishop Trautman approve of a big word like "propitious?"
Bee here:
These are BISHOPS, mind you.
Wikipedia: "In the Catholic Church, a bishop is an ordained minister who holds the fullness of the sacrament of holy orders and is responsible for teaching doctrine, governing Catholics in his jurisdiction, sanctifying the world, and representing the Church."
What part of "Thou shall not have strange gods before me." do they not understand?
If the bishops are doing this, are thinking this is right, what are the clergy and religious?
And Father Kavanaugh wonders why many of us are outraged and insist on tradition...
God bless.
Bee
I withheld my contribution to Peter's Pence this year for the first time in my adult life. I've had it!! This synod, assuming it produces an apostolic exhortation that allows for married priests and deaconesses, will be the nail in the coffin for me. This pope and his cabal of tree hugging liberals and predators will have succeeded in driving me off. I love my church and of course won't walk away from the sacraments but as for any other support, I'll take my support elsewhere.
Psalm 95:5: "For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens."
1 Paralipomenon 16:26: "For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens."
1 Corinthians 10:20: "But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God."
We now have an entire bishops' conference of purported Catholic bishops promoting prayers to demons.
This is unprecedented in the history of the Church.
So someone is lying or stupid?
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour:
Eccl 10: 1
Genuinely curious to hear Mark Thomas on this.
I haven’t heard from Marty Haugen lately. Is he living in Brazil?
I wonder how Our Lord Jesus Christ must feel and his Blessed Mother?? Why does this man Bergoglio despise the Holy Roman Church? He makes fun of us who are traditional and attend the Traditional Latin Mass, and he mocks "RIDGID" priests who were the Cassock and Biretta, I mean these are his PRIESTS he is mocking! It's far from funny anymore its down right SCARY! I have even heard he might not even wear Liturgical vestments anymore because as Bergoglio has stated who needs them. Folks there is something very very wrong with this man, I will keep my opinion to myself and pray that when this is over our new Holy Father might be Burke, Schneider, Muller, Arinze, someone who can restore sanity to Our Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, pray everybody please. Our Lady of Akita did say this was coming and boy was Our Lady right as always!!
Actually, Pope Francis and these bishops are just following Vatican II on Ecumenism. Ecumenism is not just towards Protestants, but towards non Christian religions. It implies kissing Korans or bowing to Pachamamas as a sign of respect for these religions. After all, God would not will Ecumenism if He did not also will the diversity of religions.
Dear homosexualized, freemasonized, modernist, non-Catholic leaders disguised as Catholics:
I resist you to the face.
I spurn and reject your fake religion.
I puke at your embrace of paganism.
I laugh at your stupid frivolity that will pass away.
I laugh harder at how future generations will denounce you as fools.
I resist you to the face.
Begone!
With "Bishops" like these, who needs enemiess?....Deliver O Lord, Rome from the scourge of vipers that have taken over.
"Actually, Pope Francis and these bishops are just following Vatican II on Ecumenism."
This is not correct. Vatican II on ecumenism has nothing to do with these actions.
"Ecumenism is not just towards Protestants, but towards non Christian religions."
This is not correct. Ecumenism is dialogue with fellow Christians. Relations with non-Christian religions is called "interreligious" or "interfaith" dialogue.
Re-read both Unitatis Redentigratio and Nostra Aetate.
Since PF is such a HUGE environmentalist, will he condemn the Red Chinese for this?
https://nypost.com/2019/10/29/china-dumped-27-percent-more-trash-into-the-ocean-in-2018/
Will Greta Thunberg take her Children's Crusade there? Inquiring minds want to know, resident lefties!
Anonymous @8:26
I was mockingly talking about "Ecumenism" in the wide sense as "interfaith" which "Nostra Aetatae" (2) posits: "The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."
So let's get the Pachamamas into all Catholic sanctuaries to "promote the good things" like environmentalism, and "the socio-cultural values" of the Amazonian pagans.
This is a very disturbing prayer because I think it violates climate change orthodoxy. It asks for oxen to be healthy but every faithful green believer knows that farm animals are a leading cause of climate change. And what about the desire to keep frost away? Doesn't this sound like asking Pachamama to deliver global warming? I think the pope had better discipline some Italian bishops for promoting climate change. In the church of climate fanaticism this is grounds for excommunication. These bishops better start to understand that if they think they have achieved woke status on being green then they're on dangerous ground. They need to submit texts like these to their high priestess Ms. AOC to get her imprimatur. She's really the only one who has the authority to approve these things so they don't run afoul of the new standards that are in a constant state of change. Who really cares if they are supporting idolatry, the important thing is preaching genuine climate change gospel!
It is sad how quick we humans are to judge what we do not know or understand. We all do it; no-one is exempt from this tendency, this sin. But we should at least be aware of it and attempt to understand before we judge. Here, for example, we all have our opinions about the Amazon synod, and so many are looking to find fault, any fault, and we don’t even have a papal document yet.
A central part of my own journey into the Catholic Church was my relationship to nature in Britain. I was most certainly in touch with my “pagan” spiritual roots as I wandered among the great stones of Stonehenge (when we were able to do that before it became “touristified”) or of Avebury, or walked by the great Long Barrows or Round Barrows or Silbury Hill, all in the neighboring county of Wiltshire—experiences that were especially atmospheric on a grey, foggy day—or as I walked in the woods and sensed the “spirits” of the trees. Does that make me a pagan or a heathen even when I still have such experiences? Of course not, for I am able now to incorporate these powerful experiences into a larger frame provided by my Catholic Faith, which can recast them as “divine energies” (not demons).
I have no context for judging the “Pachamama” prayer in the Italian Bishops' brochure or for what the “Pachamama” figurines really mean to the Amazonian indigenous people (indeed, they probably mean different things to different groups). And because I do not yet understand, I am not yet ready to judge.
And in case you think this is a “liberal” position, I have the same view about ultra-traditionalist “anti-Bergoglio” Catholics, and indeed Trump supporters, including even you TJM, however our “sparring” on the blog may suggest otherwise. I do not know you, and you do not know me. We do not know one another’s life stories that help explain why we think as we do. I do know, however, that when humans actually encounter one another in person, and perhaps even share some of these stories, peacefully, they never come away from such encounters unchanged.
Anonymous 2
Salisbury Plain can certainly be 'atmospheric' but I put this down to association with its Neolithic past, rather than any spiritual or divine energy.
In England our attitude to woodland is conditioned by a bucolic/pastoral tradition which is essentially benign, and is reflected in Romantic poetry. In Germany the forest has more sinister connotations which is not lost on those familiar with 19th century nature poets like Eichendorff, whose 'Waldesgespräch', in its setting by Robert Schumann in his Liederkreis op.39, is spine-chillingly eerie. There be witches.
Stonehenge (which is clearly visible from the first-floor classrooms of the Royal School of Artillery, Larkhill) is, like the pyramids and the Mona Lisa, disappointing when seen in reality.
Seeing God in nature is not idolatrous. Gerard Manley Hopkins, contemplating a bluebell, remarked 'I see the beauty of Our Lord in it.'
A2, your comment sounds reasonable, BUT the Vatican is supposed to believe in the spiritual reality and the fight between angelic and demonic beings. This is a basic teaching of the faith and the reason for the redemtion.
Also, who in the world besides the Vatican, has CENTURIES of data accumulated on pagan practices, gods and goddess names, etc.
They were NOT caught off guard. To me it means either they purposely worshipped the demonic, or they don't believe all that "nonsense."
Either way, it is very bad, and I want them ALL to go.
Dan,
Remember, Satan can quote scripture. I am sure Satan can sound reasonable too. That is how Satan ensnares the gullible.
John,
I don’t think we disagree. The key thought, as you say, is that “seeing God in nature is not idolatrous.” But of course it is possible to misidentify the object to which our spiritual sensibility is responding. Throughout her history, the Church has “baptized” this sensibility and its objects and brought them within a Christian frame of understanding. I hope that the Church will be able to do the same thing with the “Pachamama” or “Mother Earth” of the Amazonian indigenous peoples.
Whether “Pachamama” simply represents the mistaken object of such sensibility or an actual demon is beyond my pay grade and, I would suggest, beyond the pay grade of any of us here. In this I have to trust the Church rather than other “siren” voices.
Dan and TJM,
As you say, Dan, “who in the world besides the Vatican, has CENTURIES of data accumulated on pagan practices, gods and goddess names.” Exactly. Hence the second paragraph in my response to John.
As for “demonizing” one another, I am sure Satan loves nothing better than this. So, I will leave it up to the Church to do any “demonizing” that needs to be done. Yes, I know, “smoke of Satan” and all that. But again, distinguishing the “smoke of Satan” from the “smoke of incense” is also beyond my pay grade. Perhaps it is not beyond yours.
Satan loves catholics who vote for the abortion party, it is so sophisticated and inclusive!
I see TJM’s stylus is stuck in the groove again. Does anyone have a solution? It probably just needs a good cleaning.
Anonymous 2
I trust the Church to hold fast to her tradition. I do not trust Pope Francis, most (not all) of the episcopal college, and Vatican spin-doctors.
I await the Apostolic exhortation with no great optimism. It was in all likelihood penned before the Synod met.
What next? Well, there is the forthcoming Curial reform. If, as predicted, it gives national episcopal conferences authority which they have never before possessed and at the same time limits the role of dicasteries like the CDF and CDW to one in effect of merely rubber-stamping the diktats of the Pope and his Secretary of State, I would be seriously concerned. It's an unhealthy and contradictory amalgam of centralization and devolution and could lead to schism (something PF appears to be insouciant about).
Shrugging one's shoulders and saying 'it's beyond my pay grade' is a cop-out. This was what happened (at all levels) in the 1960s. This time there are those who are prepared to stand up and be counted; some of them are cardinals who would consider the matter well within their 'pay grade'.
I appreciate your comment, John, and I must respond in the same way I responded to Dan and TJM: Even though it is beyond my pay grade, perhaps it is not beyond yours. For myself, I will let the cardinals duke it out. As you suggest, it clearly does fall within their pay grade. I have enough difficulty as I stumble along trying to be a tolerably decent Catholic in my daily struggles without telling my superiors how to run the Church. This comment is no reflection on anyone other than myself.
Anonymous 2
Many of the most perceptive writings concerning the state of the Church are by informed laymen. They are not constrained in the way that clerics or professed religious are, and therefore do not have 'superiors'.
Anyone who has studied the evolution of strategy in the nuclear age will know that it was formulated by civilian experts, many connected with the RAND Corporation, rather than by the military. General Westmoreland lost the Vietnam war by pursuing, for four years, a strategic course which was misguided and ultimately disastrous.
I don't claim great expertise in ecclesiastical matters. I do try to keep abreast of events and to exercise critical judgement. Like everyone else I am subject to 'confirmation bias'. This does not deter me from contributing my meagre two penn'orth to the debate.
For the record, the best comment on this thread was made three days ago by Michael A. He demonstrates that irony can be genuinely funny and is worlds away from the heavy-handed and unfunny sarcasm peddled by a certain anonymous (occasionally pseudonymous) troll.
I admit I had to look up AOC which I thought stood for Air Officer Commanding.
And John once again demonstrates his heavy-handed and unfunny superiority complex.
Trolls abound, don't they, John?
Anonymous
'Fraid so, and you're a prime example.
John, welcome to the club. You have earned a life-long, irrevocable membership.
Cheers!
Trolldom seems to have no problem with proselytism, although the rules of the club are not specified. Could our resident troll enlighten the rest of us?
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