Update! Please note by widening photo you will see that Pachamama is placed in front of the pope at last day of the Amazon Synod. This photo is the lead photo on Saturday’s Vatican News webpage.
Are we at a tipping point? I have wondered what the laity think of all the confusion coming out of Rome. I don’t have a good sense of the laity’s feeling. I do know that the sexual abuse scandal and the ongoing reporting of events decades ago has been a stomach blow to faithful Catholics and many Catholics, not all marginal ones, have disengaged from the Church.
But the polarization that Pope Francis is causing leaves so many wondering about him and what appears to be an arrogant, manipulative, dictatorial agenda.
I received this anonymous comment on another post. I also had a priest friend tell me yesterday that after Mass a lay person, who goes to daily Mass, is thinking about leaving the Church with this latest Pacchamama debacle and the things she has heard discussed at the Amazon synod.
Here is the comment. What would you say to this faithful Catholic skating on thin ice?
Father, what do we do now? I am very very distressed about all that has been going on. I like everyone else has endured decades of liturgical abuse, the Faith not being properly taught in schools. Liberal nuns, pedophile priests, bishops and cardinals and popes protecting and promoting evil clerics, statues of Luther being brought into the Vatican, popes kissing the feet of apostates and pagans, financial scandals and now the pope bringing pagan idols! It’s too much. I thought the gates of Hell will not prevail. It sure looks Hell has prevailed. If the pope venerates in any way those demon idols in St. Peter’s, WHAT DO WE DO THEN?
This is a serious question. I feel completely and utterly abandoned. I have carried a particular cross (like everyone has) for over 45 years. And now I feel like I wasted my life. What was the point if nothing is a sin, if adulterers can go to communion without giving up their sin; why should I have bothered all these years trying to live a good moral life. Why! It’s too much. A pope apologizing for pagan idols being removed from the house of God! It’s too much. The Church does NOT belong to Jorge Bergoglio and the Jesuit order!. Why will no bishop or cardinal even make an attempt to stop this man. It was lay people that had to remove those filthy idols, it should have been a bishop in broad daylight. Father what do we do. I am doubting my Faith. I don’t know what to do now. I feel like I have been living a lie my whole life.
24 comments:
Sounds like I wrote that.
Further, I will not participate in a Church which willfully and purposefully dismantles Herself and absolutely breaks the first commandment. For the sake of argument, we will pretend that Francis just doesn't think giving scandal to the entire world is a problem. I will still not participate in the sin of scandal.
I believe though that the Vatican knows exactly what it is doing and it relates to what Malachi Martin wrote about. (He who has ears, etc)
Nope, I am done, and in good conscience, until Francis is condemned.
Think the Church lost a lot of Catholics post the VII disorientation? You've ain't seen nothing yet. Pre VII faith was strong and people left. Now faith is not so strong and we have Bergoglio.
First, we all need to recognize and acknowledge that, despite how bad things may seem at the present moment, the gates of hell will not prevail over the Church and the reign of God will not be overthrown.
That being said, we also have to recognize that the promise of indefectibility is not a promise that we, the Church, will be free from suffering and struggle. And that, at times, the struggle will seem to be overwhelming. In Salvifici Doloris, Saint Pope John Paul II wrote, "Assuming then that throughout his earthly life man walks in one manner or another on the long path of suffering, it is precisely on this path that the Church at all times . . .should meet man."
Human life includes, necessarily and inescapably, suffering. That can be physical, psychological, or spiritual. While we will know moments of joy and fulfillment, there will also be times of pain and, for some, desolation.
We also have to recognize that there have been times in the distant and not so distant past when the Church was in far worse shape than it may be - MAY be - now. We aren't retreating to catacombs, we aren't being hunted down for extermination, and we aren't seeing wide spread overt anti-Catholic pogroms. Yes, I know that there are cases of martyrdom in the present age - I am not being Pollyannaish.
Second, we have to come to terms with how the constant flow of hyperbolic reportage distorts reality. "Bombshell" blog posts, "Alert" news flashes, "Breaking News" beeps on the cell phone all contribute to a sense that the next day or the next hour will bring the collapse of human civilization.
It won't.
I often think of what Martin Luther is said to have replied when asked what he would do if he knew the world would end the next day. "I would plant a tree," he said.
Some find it necessary to be so over-the-top as a way to attract attention. Bloviators abound, and, almost to a man, they exaggerate, the overreact, they make dire predictions all in an attempt to sound important and to keep people tuning in to what they have to say, even when what they have to say is pure balderdash.
Third - and this is what can keep us on an even keel - we have to continue to do the work we were given at Baptism - to make disciples. The primary and most effective means to do this is by living lives of virtue. "You are the light of the world. You are the salt of the earth." Your goodness is the means by which God continues to bring healing and reconciliation, comfort and peace to the world.
The task is at one time simple and demanding. When we conclude that there is an immensity of evil that is reaching up to destroy us, we can conclude, as Satan would have us conclude, that we are powerless to repulse the attack. We will say, "Why doesn't the pope do something?" Or "Why doesn't the Church put things back the way there were 100 years ago." Or "The problems are all cause by "those people" (whoever they may be) and they have to be eliminated in order for things to get better."
Nope. For things to get better I must act with justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. I must love my neighbor as myself. I must remove the plank from my own eye before pointing to the speck in my brother's of sister's eye.
So, "What do we do now?" We get up, go outside, lock to door, go to the wrong side of the tracks, and feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, visit those in prison. We welcome to stranger, we protect the vulnerable, and we rejoice that, when sufferings come, that we have been found worthy to make up in our own sufferings what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
I stand by what I wrote in a different post:: ..." ...but at what point does when one being spiritually abused, liturgically abused (and in some cases physically) had enough? At what point does constantly being on defense become an obstacle to the spiritual life? I know for myself in conjunction with my Spiritual Father advised me to go East, and so I did, and I've been at peace, been able to pray the Liturgy,, to Love God, and to love neighbour. I'm a part of a church with real orders, real succession, and real authority and is not schismatic (or sedevacantist). It's a whole mentality/lifestyle change, but it's absolutely worth it."
Dan, I made that decision nearly 3 years ago, There is no justification for this behaviour of the pope, none....he is not naive, he is not stupid, he's not being "taken advantage of", he is fully enabling this behaviour. enough with the mental gymnastics trying to defend him, it is pure stupidity and exhaustion. This is the tipping point...There are many who will either run to Sedevacantism, SSPX< or Orthodoxy now, it's about to get ugly for Rome after this. The pope himself acknowledged that the thing was an idol...Lord have mercy.
I have considered whether this could be the "abomination that causes desolation standing where it should not" My opinion is that it is not but rather it is a combination of Satan testing the waters to get a read on the reaction of the remaining faithful Catholics and a further anesthetization of the consciences of nominal Catholics. The big event is yet to come,probably in the not too distant future. As for myself I am working to promote the proliferation of the EF Mass in our area. I avoid the NO Mass as much as possible but do work for fast radical reform of the reform for the NO in any way I can. Most of my giving is now going to formation of priests for FSSP,ICK,SSPX. this is the only path forward for the true worship of God. Saint Michael the Arch Angel defend us in battle.....
The "Francis Effect" for our parish is that we've had entire families leave. They have joined the local Orthodox Church. The latest imagery coming from Rome only reaffirms their decision.
The result of this latest synod will be an acceleration of the exodus of Amazon region Catholics from the Church, which continues unabated.
The online comments from people in Brazil tell the story.
Protestants in the area actually preach about Jesus Christ and baptize people.
The Catholic Church has at least one bishop that admits to never having baptized a single soul while in the Amazon because "accompaniment."
As a lay person, I find it embarrassing to get into a discussion about the Church with non-Catholics, particularly among some of my Muslim clients.
What do they see? Homosexual priests, Vatican intrigue, money being stolen, and now blatant idolatry.
And the priests and bishops go merrily on their way as if nothing is happening.
As FRA MJK often says here: Nope.
I won’t be leaving the Church. But I no longer look to the magisterium for guidance. I no longer listen to Rome; Rome has become a joke at best, a very poor head at worst. And I no longer assume priests are there to help with spiritual needs. Some do, some don’t. That has always been true. As a lay person, I don’t need Rome to model what I need to do as a Catholic Christian; and I only need priests to administer the sacraments and occasionally give a good homily. There are very poor clerical models out there, of course—TMTC. But I don’t pay attention to them as they don’t deserve the attention. That is what I’ve learned the hard way in looking for anything else.
There are good bishops out there who fight the good fight. There are priests who care about spiritual formation as a priority and don’t view the Church primarily as an NGO. Good people do good things to care for those on “the wrong side of the tracks”, and I’ve noticed that it doesn’t take church influence to direct those efforts. Some of the most charitable people I know are agnostics.
As a favorite songwriter penned: “The road is long with many a winding turn...but I’m strong, strong enough to carry on”.
From around the Internet:
1. Paul Buckley @PaulBuc31614268 · Oct 23
I have to admit I’ve been considering taking my family to an Orthodox Church lately. What other options do we have if we want to stay free of error..
2. Monsignor Ferrari @ServizioVatican
I asked an elderly man why I hadn't seen him at daily Mass recently.
He said, "When the Church ceases to look like the Church, teach like Church, love Christ like the Church, it isn't the Church."
He has been going to an Orthodox church.
The Orthodox allow divorce and contraception.
http://sspx.org/en/mass-locator
It seems to me that Father Kavanaugh has answered the question posed by Father McDonald most effectively. And the biggest threat to the Church and the Faith (and much else besides) is not Pope Francis but the phenomenon Father Kavanaugh describes in his second point. Let us not forget that this is the sort of consternation the Vladimirs of this world want to cause in the Church, in the Republic, and indeed anywhere they can. We should not play into their hands. What was it Kipling said about keeping your head when all around you are losing theirs?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46473/if---
It is perhaps an impossible goal but one surely worth striving for, however often we might fall short—rather like our Faith really, one could say.
I stand with Cardinal Mueller.
Mallen
Anonymous:
The Magisterium is a whole lot bigger than "Rome" and/or Pope Francis, both in space and in time. That is, it is all the bishops in union with the pope, and is this pope and these bishops, in union with those who have gone before.
At any given time, some portion of those exercising the teaching authority will be cause for concern, if not scandal. I'm not happy about it, but there it is. It is not a new problem.
Okay, one thing I'd like to remind the Bergoglians about - the Catholics Church ALWAYS was supremely concerned about the orphans, the widows, the outcasts, the unloved, the sick... idiots thinks this is something that only started in the 60's, or that Bergoglio has some special new message about that.
Baloney.
Bee here:
The email writer said, "Father what do we do. I am doubting my Faith. I don’t know what to do now. I feel like I have been living a lie my whole life."
This time is a testing for you, for all of us. The question is, what is your Faith in, men, or Jesus Christ? Have you built your house (Faith) on rock (the Word of God (Jesus)), or on sand (what men say)? Because here comes the wind, and the torrents...
Men (people), even clerics, are fallible, they will at times falter and sometimes fail you. Jesus Christ (God) is not fallible. He does not falter. He will never fail you.
Men (people), even clerics, can be deceptive, and deliberately mislead you. Jesus Christ (God) will never deceive you. He will never mislead you.
So what do you do now? You do all you can to pass the test, for Satan has obviously determined to sift us all as wheat.
You reiterate your Faith in Jesus Christ. You hold fast to the doctrines and dogmas that are settled, that were settled by the Council of Trent and the Council of Nicea.
You realize the human Church in Rome, and in many places, may be led by apostates. From now on when you hear something they say or see something they do that contradicts what you know the Church has taught in ages past, do not take it in. If it sounds fishy, do not take it in. If it disquiets your spirit, do not take it in.
You pray. And pray. And pray...hard, for God to show you the way.
You consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (by way of the devotion promulgated by St. Louis De Montfort.) You fly to her protection... "Remember O Most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known, that anyone who fled to thy protection...was left unaided."
You double down. You know what the Church teaches. If you don't know you find out by reading old (before 1950) theology books. You avoid any parishes that begin to offer heretical liturgies.
Fr. John Hardon said in a talk once that you can attend Orthodox (even Greek or Russian) liturgies to fulfill your Sunday obligation, even though you cannot receive communion in them.
Never leave Christ. Never leave the Church. Refuse to give up your birthright, your baptismal right.
Say with St. Peter to Jesus, "Even if everyone else abandons You, I will never abandon You." He was tested and failed. Once. After that, when he was tested, he never failed again.
You were born for this time. God foresaw you living in this time. He has already prepared all the graces you need to withstand whatever comes. Turn to Him with Faith. Reaffirm your Faith in Him. I promise, with all I know is true, He will answer you and help you.
God bless.
Bee
"...idiots thinks this is something that only started in the 60's,..."
This is the kind of hyperbole that underlies the unnecessary tensions in the Church today. It is a statement made in frustration and anger, and it is an intentional slur, casting doubt on the knowledge and the intentions of others.
No one actually thinks this. No one.
@DJR said.....Protestants in the area actually preach about Jesus Christ and baptize people.
Kanye West just released an album titled Jesus is King. The liberals would have us think that Jesus is just another social worker.
Anonymous Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...
I must remove the plank from my own eye before pointing to the speck in my brother's of sister's eye."
The liberal's favorite bible verse.....you can't tell me what to do lol. Jesus gave us the Spiritual Works of Mercy also so apparently He expects us to speak up against error. Kinda funny the libs didn't have any problem judging and accusing of sin those people who defended the Faith by throwing the idols in the river.
" We get up, go outside, lock to door, go to the wrong side of the tracks,"
Nothing about proclaiming the Truths of Jesus Christ and His Church? Jesus didn't send the apostles out to mingle.
So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”… Many left because of the scandal. Will we? The Holy One of God is the only one who matters. I will be like Peter.
johnnyc :
"We get up, go outside, lock to door, go to the wrong side of the tracks,...
Nothing about proclaiming the Truths of Jesus Christ and His Church?"
Being the face of Jesus to those in need, especially those who are abandoned, those who are oppressed, those who are hungry, naked, alone, in prison, hurting - those who are on the wrong side of the tracks - is precisely about proclaiming the Truths of Jesus Christ and His Church.
Maybe to you proclaiming the truth means something else - teaching about the Aristotelian roots of transubstantiation, explaining why altar candles must be 51% beeswax, teaching people in church to chant in Latin, dressing popes and cardinals and bishops as if they were Middle Ages feudal lords - but that's just not so.
What is not true about Matthew 25 as the quintessence of the work of the Church?
@Anonymous 6:53.....The Church has been feeding bellys since the beginning but also understood that the main mission given to her by Christ was feeding souls for salvation. It's both/and but the Church was established as a means to salvation. You think St. Peter, St. Paul and other apostles were martyred because they were handing out blankets?
Atheists and protestants can do good works. You could be working in a soup kitchen next to one and in your line of thinking they would a okay but they would leave that day without hearing about Jesus Christ and His One True Church, the Catholic Church.
And yes it would behoove you to know the Faith even to detail. Not only to properly evangelize but also as protection of yourself so that you will not be "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles". Ephesians 4:11-16
Marc says the Orthodox allow divorce and contraception.
And?????
Didn't our Lord allow for divorce in case of adultery?
Does anyone out there know of a book that explains the election of Francis as pope? What was behind his election? What items were discussed prior to the election? Who were the other candidates? Was it a reaction to the previous pope? Inquiring minds would like to know. With all the problems the Episcopal Church has these days---and there are many (like the collapse of sexual morality there), at least there is more transparency in its operations, like when its bishops are elected---you know the date of the election and the candidates thereof.
"The Church has been feeding bellys since the beginning but also understood that the main mission given to her by Christ was feeding souls for salvation. It's both/and but the Church was established as a means to salvation."
I would say the Church has been feeding people, not bellies. It would seem that in your view we could skip over Matthew 25:31-46 because feeding, clothing, giving drink, welcoming the stranger, visiting the imprisoned are not the "main mission," that is, "feeding souls for salvation." I think that is an incorrect view.
"You think St. Peter, St. Paul and other apostles were martyred because they were handing out blankets?" No, but I know that people, good church-going people, are arrested today because they are feeding the hungry in "illegal" soup kitchens."
Yes, atheists can (and do) do good works. But we know that they can do these good works only because they are prompted by grace, whether they acknowledge it or not. If, in the example of holiness found in Christians, the atheist encounters the Gospel, then the work of evangelization is underway.
I am well-grounded in the faith and that grounding keep me from trying to separate good works from the work of evangelization and making disciples.
I would say what the Orthodox do not do, is pretend that life didn't happen. As there is only one sacramental marriage allowed (2nd and 3rd marriages are penitential and non-sacramental (and yes, there are abuses in the system as well). An annulment is effectively the same permission. (Yes, I know well, it's a declaration of null, and states that something didn't happen retroactively...but let's be honest, it's a permission to re-marry, but I think the theology of Marriage in the East and in the West is not worth a full comment here)
As for contraception....if it leads to an abortion, or thereof, then, of course, it is condemned. Contraception is allowed in situations that do not lead towards an abortion, or in cases of medical needs. (Which Humane Vitae does actually allow)....Whereas the fathers are extremely clear on abortion, they speak much less so on contraception...I'd just say that the question on contraception has a bit more grey than the absolute evil that is abortion. (Because if there's one science we are clueless about, it's biology)
I can speak to my own reality as an Orthodox, the focus is on the Holy Trinity, the Holy Mysteries, and the love of neighbour. We're not fighting over Liturgy or would even dare to think to bring Pamanhana (or whatever it's supposed to be) into a Holy Temple. We do have problems of course, but those problems, in general, can be solved with the stroke of a pen. As I've said before in the East, it tolerates all schism, but no heresy, whereas in the west it's the opposite, tolerate all heresies, but no schism.
Allow me to share a sermon from my Vladyka on loving our enemies; https://orthodox-europe.org/2019/10/15/homily-love-enemies/
I no longer buy the idea that in order to be in the Church, that one must be in Communion with the Roman See of Peter. (There are the Sees of Peter in Antioch and Alexandria). I think it's more important that one be attached to an Apostolic church (Whether that be Orthodox or Catholic), keeping close to the Sacraments, keeping up prayer life, and of course, showing that love through the love of neighbour. (I'm glad at the Divine Liturgy, we always sing the Beatitudes)
But I do believe Fr MJK does have a major point, that we can't give what we don't have. Someone once asked a famous member of the Church, what was wrong with the Church, and they said: "I am what's wrong with the Church" or "you and I" or put another way, we're our own worst obstacles in the Church. We must transform ourselves before we can transform others, and that's a point we always have to keep in mind.
Although the statues did not make their appearance at the Mass, the fact that they were in the chapel with the Blessed Sacrament, that itself requires reparation.
Православный физик said..."As for contraception....if it leads to an abortion, or thereof, then, of course, it is condemned. Contraception is allowed in situations that do not lead towards an abortion, or in cases of medical needs. (Which Humane Vitae does actually allow)....Whereas the fathers are extremely clear on abortion, they speak much less so on contraception...I'd just say that the question on contraception has a bit more grey than the absolute evil that is abortion."
Contraception is condemned in Sacred Scripture very strongly in at least two places.
Post a Comment