How about rather than yawning, use the links in the article to sign petition to the bishops and to add your name to the open letter if you are a priest.
Since this letter in itself carries no weight it depends on the action of the bishops, right? What degree of solidarity and coordination is demanded from them? Frankly, a lot of what Pope Francis does that is controversial concurs with what appears to be the majority of bishops. Could they muster a significant number of bishops that agree to investigate this?
Prominent clergy, scholars accuse Pope Francis of heresy in open letter
April 30, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – Prominent clergymen and scholars including...Fr. John Hunwicke..."
Father Hunwicke traffics in spewing verbal venom at the Vicar of Christ, Pope Francis.
Here is today's nonsense from "prominent" Fr. Hunwicke's blog...
Cardinal Sarah and proselytism
"His Eminence Cardinal Sarah does not rant. He does not take PF to task directly by name.
He just tells the Truth.. When PF has taught error, as he so frequently does, Sarah does not tactfully wait a few weeks and then tactfully tell the Truth. He tells it straight away. Calmly, humbly, elegantly.
"I do not have Cardinal Sarah's gentle and saintly gifts. I find it difficult to conceal the fact that, in my own opinion and speaking only for myself, this pontificate has moved from being an embarrassment to being a problem, and, now, to being something far worse.Tomorrow I will offer a concrete example of what I regard as Proselytism." ================================================================================i====
Here is the first comment in Fr. Hunwicke's comments box:
"Pelerin said...
I remember being shocked when I first read that Pope Francis told people not to proselytise. I thought of all those wonderful missionaries over the ages who had left their home and family to go and minister in far countries with all the dangers that they faced. What must they have thought?" ====================================================================================
Note to Fr. Hunwicke and thoser who followed his lead in bashing Pope Francis' declaration in regard to proselytism:
"The Church does not engage in proselytism. Instead, she grows by “attraction”:
Pope Francis, more than once, has quoted the above. He did not originate the above. He quoted Pope Benedict XVI.
Will Fr. Hunwicke and his followers bash Pope Benedict XVI in regard to the former Pope's 2007 A.D. declaration that the Church does not engage in proselytism?
Do Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean commemorate Pope Francis during Mass?
If they do, then they pronounce their communion with Pope Francis. They declare that Pope Francis promotes the orthodox, True Faith.
If they don't commemorate Pope Francis during Mass, they they have separated from the Church.
But now that they have placed themselves upon the path that leads to ruination of souls, they will appear two-faced should they commemorate Pope Francis during Mass.
The Open Letter lists supposed "heresies" that Pope Francis promoted prior to December 2016 A.D.
However, in December 2016 A.D., Cardinal Burke rejected the notion that Pope Francis had ever trafficked in heresy.
Catholic World Report:
CWR: "Just to clarify again, are you saying that Pope Francis is in heresy or is close to it?"
Cardinal Burke: "No, I am not saying that Pope Francis is in heresy. I have never said that. Neither have I stated that he is close to being in heresy." ================================================================================
Hmmm...during times when Pope Francis had trafficked in heresy, according to the "prominent" clergymen linked to the Open Letter, Cardinal Burke, a "prominent" clergyman had failed to notice that Pope Francis had even come close to heresy.
I guess that Cardinal Burke's ability to spot heresy is second-rate as compared to the keen heresy-spotting senses possessed by the Open Letter folks.
You have zero credibility here until you tell us what your golden calf did to rebuke or discipline the gay Vatican clerics caught in a cocaine fueled sex orgy.
PF is doing a great job all by himself ruining souls. When you have the credentials, erudition and credibility of the signatories, please return with some reasoned arguments than lists of non sequiturs
The bottom line in regard to Fathers Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean:
They have linked Pope Francis to heresy. They have insisted that Pope Francis has inflicted tremendous harm upon Holy Mother Church.
However, when the above priests offer Holy Mass, they commemorate Pope Francis as holding the True Faith.
Via Eucharistic Prayer I, for example, Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean declare that Pope Francis is among those "holding to the truth, hand on the catholic and apostolic faith."
Pope Francis cannot possibly hold and hand on the True Faith while trafficking in heresy.
Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean traffic in nonsense.
They will prove to be two-faced frauds should they continue to commemorate Pope Francis as our orthodox Roman Pontiff.
The additional Catholics who signed the Open Letter will show themselves as two-faced frauds should they continue to say "Amen" to the liturgical commemoration of Pope Francis as our orthodox Roman Pontiff.
The priests and others attached to the Open Letter will show themselves as frauds should they continue to express their communion with Pope Francis, a man they've linked to heresy...a man they've claimed has inflicted grave harm upon Holy Mother Church.
You really do write the most dreadful nonsense. I have met Fr Crean and Fr Hunwicke on numerous occasions. I attended the latter's ordination in Oxford a few years back. Fr Hunwicke does not 'spew venom'. When it comes to spewing out words onto a page, look no further than yourself.
I have not met Fr Nichols but am familiar with at least some his writings. He is scholarly, measured and decidedly non-polemical. Judging by your comments, you have not bothered reading him.
I don't imagine that Benedict (or Francis) would downplay evangelization. To proselytize is simply to make converts. Perhaps you could give us the context of the Benedict quotation, preferably in the original German. Unlike his successor, he was not prone to loose utterances. But his remarks were often taken out of context.
Criticism of the Pope (even so serious a criticism as this one) does not mean that one is not in communion with him. So talk of being 'two faced' is simply childish. I see that you read Fr H's blog, so you will know that he does not enable sedevacantist comments.
By all means defend Pope Francis, in which case you need to refute the evidence point by point, and there are copious amounts of it. Simply trashing each and everyone who criticizes PF will not do, and you know it.
Mark Thomas I could not read very far into your comments, but regarding your statement (calumny? slander?) that Fr Hunwicke "traffics in spewing venom" at your Francis, I can only say that this tells me that you have not actually followed Fr Hunwicke's blog for very long.
I guess you found (and will find) a comment or two that supports your already made up mind concerning what you believe to be a plot against your Francis.
One more thing MT, I have followed Fr Hunwick's blog, and I can assure you that it too a very long time for him to give any impression of not being supportive of Francis. I also got a "Francis support" response to a private email that I sent him after I had come to the conclusion that Francis is an evil destroyer of the Faith.
Frankly, I know of NO sincere and honest observer of this "papacy" which has not become concerned.
Alas, we are dealing with a child who has a disturbing attachment to the person of PF rather than the Papacy. When I read the rantings of MT, I can imagine him living in Germany in the 1930s spewing similar nonsense about Der Fuhrer. These people can be dangerous.
John Nolan said..."I have met Fr Crean and Fr Hunwicke on numerous occasions. I attended the latter's ordination in Oxford a few years back. Fr Hunwicke does not 'spew venom'."
Sure he does. You have not read the nonsense that he's spewed at the Vicar of Christ, Pope Francis?
By the way, as they have linked Pope Francis to heresy, do you think that Fathers Crean and Hunwicke will continue to commemorate Pope Francis during Mass?
Will they continue to declare during Masses that Pope Francis holds and promotes the Catholic and Apostolic Faith?
Then, following Mass, will they declare that he traffics in heresy?
Will they cease to be two-faced in regard to the above?
Dan said..." One more thing MT, I have followed Fr Hunwick's blog, and I can assure you that it too a very long time for him to give any impression of not being supportive of Francis. I also got a "Francis support" response to a private email that I sent him after I had come to the conclusion that Francis is an evil destroyer of the Faith."
When did you receive his "Francis support" response? He has linked Pope Francis to heresies, as well as the destruction of the Church. I wonder whether he continues to issue "Francis support" responses via email?
Mark Thomas the response was only a few heretical remarks and actions and writings into this "papacy." This was during the time that most people were watching and waiting to see if Francis was as bad as I ALREADY believed him to be.
Fr. Hunwick was a supporter for as long as he could continue in cognitive dissonance.
Dan said..."Fr. Hunwick was a supporter for as long as he could continue in cognitive dissonance.
Dan, have you read the Open Letter? Have you read the embarrassing examples — embarrassing to the folks who signed the Open Letter — that the Open Letter folks employed to link Pope Francis to heresy/destruction of the Faith?
Among the nonsense espoused by the Open Letter is that Pope Francis' promotions of certain bishops prove the His Holiness is linked to heresy.
Based upon that logic, Pope Venerable Pius XII was a heretic as he appointed one supposed modernist Cardinal/bishop after another.
The same applies to Popes Saints John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II.
The above applies also the "modernists" appointed by Pope Benedict XVI.
MT either enjoys getting into our heads or, he truly and breathlessly utters PF's name at regular intervals throughout the day. He is ALWAYS right. We, and most importantly, the priests who have provided guidance and correction here in the past are NEVER right. Google him, he posts similarly on other blogs. Just ignore him and let him continue authoring and posting his prideful screeds for as long as our genial host permits.
When you return and address each point that the letter raises, do not merely argue that their opinion is incorrect.
Please just address whether or not the words or actions described actually occurred, and whether or not such words and actions COULD be interpreted in a way to cause concern among the faithful.
Because if the words and actions did occur as described, and if the faithful might become confused and think the pope has become a heretic, then I think even you may stop being surprised at concerns over your Francis.
27 comments:
Well, I am not sure PF is non compis mentes. Pretty damning indictment though.
Father McDonald, I implore you not to post the rantings of "you know who!"
How about rather than yawning, use the links in the article to sign petition to the bishops and to add your name to the open letter if you are a priest.
Then say a prayer.
Since this letter in itself carries no weight it depends on the action of the bishops, right? What degree of solidarity and coordination is demanded from them? Frankly, a lot of what Pope Francis does that is controversial concurs with what appears to be the majority of bishops. Could they muster a significant number of bishops that agree to investigate this?
Yawn. Old news.
I pray that God's Will be done.
It will be a yawn.
Agree with TJM regarding "you know who". It's totally draining.
TJM
Your opening sentence contains a double negative and two incorrect inflections. It should read: 'I am not sure PF is compos mentis.'
Interesting that Aidan Nichols OP is one of the signatories. He hardly fits MT's stereotype of a 'right-wing' mendacious gossip-monger.
That PF is susoected of being a heretic and a scoundrel might be 'old news' but that doesn't mean it can be simply brushed aside.
Prominent clergy, scholars accuse Pope Francis of heresy in open letter
April 30, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – Prominent clergymen and scholars including...Fr. John Hunwicke..."
Father Hunwicke traffics in spewing verbal venom at the Vicar of Christ, Pope Francis.
Here is today's nonsense from "prominent" Fr. Hunwicke's blog...
Cardinal Sarah and proselytism
"His Eminence Cardinal Sarah does not rant. He does not take PF to task directly by name.
He just tells the Truth.. When PF has taught error, as he so frequently does, Sarah does not tactfully wait a few weeks and then tactfully tell the Truth. He tells it straight away. Calmly, humbly, elegantly.
"I do not have Cardinal Sarah's gentle and saintly gifts. I find it difficult to conceal the fact that, in my own opinion and speaking only for myself, this pontificate has moved from being an embarrassment to being a problem, and, now, to being something far worse.Tomorrow I will offer a concrete example of what I regard as Proselytism."
================================================================================i====
Here is the first comment in Fr. Hunwicke's comments box:
"Pelerin said...
I remember being shocked when I first read that Pope Francis told people not to proselytise. I thought of all those wonderful missionaries over the ages who had left their home and family to go and minister in far countries with all the dangers that they faced. What must they have thought?"
====================================================================================
Note to Fr. Hunwicke and thoser who followed his lead in bashing Pope Francis' declaration in regard to proselytism:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/homilies/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20070513_conference-brazil.html
Pope Benedict XVI, May 13, 2007 A.D.
"The Church does not engage in proselytism. Instead, she grows by “attraction”:
Pope Francis, more than once, has quoted the above. He did not originate the above. He quoted Pope Benedict XVI.
Will Fr. Hunwicke and his followers bash Pope Benedict XVI in regard to the former Pope's 2007 A.D. declaration that the Church does not engage in proselytism?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Do Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean commemorate Pope Francis during Mass?
If they do, then they pronounce their communion with Pope Francis. They declare that Pope Francis promotes the orthodox, True Faith.
If they don't commemorate Pope Francis during Mass, they they have separated from the Church.
But now that they have placed themselves upon the path that leads to ruination of souls, they will appear two-faced should they commemorate Pope Francis during Mass.
They have painted themselves into a corner.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
If there are any physicians reading this, please prescribe Mark Thomas some Zoloft. Thank you.
The Open Letter lists supposed "heresies" that Pope Francis promoted prior to December 2016 A.D.
However, in December 2016 A.D., Cardinal Burke rejected the notion that Pope Francis had ever trafficked in heresy.
Catholic World Report:
CWR: "Just to clarify again, are you saying that Pope Francis is in heresy or is close to it?"
Cardinal Burke: "No, I am not saying that Pope Francis is in heresy. I have never said that. Neither have I stated that he is close to being in heresy."
================================================================================
Hmmm...during times when Pope Francis had trafficked in heresy, according to the "prominent" clergymen linked to the Open Letter, Cardinal Burke, a "prominent" clergyman had failed to notice that Pope Francis had even come close to heresy.
I guess that Cardinal Burke's ability to spot heresy is second-rate as compared to the keen heresy-spotting senses possessed by the Open Letter folks.
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT,
You have zero credibility here until you tell us what your golden calf did to rebuke or discipline the gay Vatican clerics caught in a cocaine fueled sex orgy.
PF is doing a great job all by himself ruining souls. When you have the credentials, erudition and credibility of the signatories, please return with some reasoned arguments than lists of non sequiturs
The bottom line in regard to Fathers Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean:
They have linked Pope Francis to heresy. They have insisted that Pope Francis has inflicted tremendous harm upon Holy Mother Church.
However, when the above priests offer Holy Mass, they commemorate Pope Francis as holding the True Faith.
Via Eucharistic Prayer I, for example, Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean declare that Pope Francis is among those "holding to the truth, hand on the catholic and apostolic faith."
Pope Francis cannot possibly hold and hand on the True Faith while trafficking in heresy.
Fathers Nichols, Hunwicke, and Crean traffic in nonsense.
They will prove to be two-faced frauds should they continue to commemorate Pope Francis as our orthodox Roman Pontiff.
The additional Catholics who signed the Open Letter will show themselves as two-faced frauds should they continue to say "Amen" to the liturgical commemoration of Pope Francis as our orthodox Roman Pontiff.
The priests and others attached to the Open Letter will show themselves as frauds should they continue to express their communion with Pope Francis, a man they've linked to heresy...a man they've claimed has inflicted grave harm upon Holy Mother Church.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas
You really do write the most dreadful nonsense. I have met Fr Crean and Fr Hunwicke on numerous occasions. I attended the latter's ordination in Oxford a few years back. Fr Hunwicke does not 'spew venom'. When it comes to spewing out words onto a page, look no further than yourself.
I have not met Fr Nichols but am familiar with at least some his writings. He is scholarly, measured and decidedly non-polemical. Judging by your comments, you have not bothered reading him.
I don't imagine that Benedict (or Francis) would downplay evangelization. To proselytize is simply to make converts. Perhaps you could give us the context of the Benedict quotation, preferably in the original German. Unlike his successor, he was not prone to loose utterances. But his remarks were often taken out of context.
Criticism of the Pope (even so serious a criticism as this one) does not mean that one is not in communion with him. So talk of being 'two faced' is simply childish. I see that you read Fr H's blog, so you will know that he does not enable sedevacantist comments.
By all means defend Pope Francis, in which case you need to refute the evidence point by point, and there are copious amounts of it. Simply trashing each and everyone who criticizes PF will not do, and you know it.
Mark Thomas I could not read very far into your comments, but regarding your statement (calumny? slander?) that Fr Hunwicke "traffics in spewing venom" at your Francis, I can only say that this tells me that you have not actually followed Fr Hunwicke's blog for very long.
I guess you found (and will find) a comment or two that supports your already made up mind concerning what you believe to be a plot against your Francis.
One more thing MT, I have followed Fr Hunwick's blog, and I can assure you that it too a very long time for him to give any impression of not being supportive of Francis. I also got a "Francis support" response to a private email that I sent him after I had come to the conclusion that Francis is an evil destroyer of the Faith.
Frankly, I know of NO sincere and honest observer of this "papacy" which has not become concerned.
Stay "paxified" - I'm not.
John Nolan and Dan,
Alas, we are dealing with a child who has a disturbing attachment to the person of PF rather than the Papacy. When I read the rantings of MT, I can imagine him living in Germany in the 1930s spewing similar nonsense about Der Fuhrer. These people can be dangerous.
John Nolan said..."I have met Fr Crean and Fr Hunwicke on numerous occasions. I attended the latter's ordination in Oxford a few years back. Fr Hunwicke does not 'spew venom'."
Sure he does. You have not read the nonsense that he's spewed at the Vicar of Christ, Pope Francis?
By the way, as they have linked Pope Francis to heresy, do you think that Fathers Crean and Hunwicke will continue to commemorate Pope Francis during Mass?
Will they continue to declare during Masses that Pope Francis holds and promotes the Catholic and Apostolic Faith?
Then, following Mass, will they declare that he traffics in heresy?
Will they cease to be two-faced in regard to the above?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
MT,
Just go away. You are a papalotor which is heresy
Dan said..."
One more thing MT, I have followed Fr Hunwick's blog, and I can assure you that it too a very long time for him to give any impression of not being supportive of Francis. I also got a "Francis support" response to a private email that I sent him after I had come to the conclusion that Francis is an evil destroyer of the Faith."
When did you receive his "Francis support" response? He has linked Pope Francis to heresies, as well as the destruction of the Church. I wonder whether he continues to issue "Francis support" responses via email?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas the response was only a few heretical remarks and actions and writings into this "papacy." This was during the time that most people were watching and waiting to see if Francis was as bad as I ALREADY believed him to be.
Fr. Hunwick was a supporter for as long as he could continue in cognitive dissonance.
Dan said..."Fr. Hunwick was a supporter for as long as he could continue in cognitive dissonance.
Dan, have you read the Open Letter? Have you read the embarrassing examples — embarrassing to the folks who signed the Open Letter — that the Open Letter folks employed to link Pope Francis to heresy/destruction of the Faith?
Among the nonsense espoused by the Open Letter is that Pope Francis' promotions of certain bishops prove the His Holiness is linked to heresy.
Based upon that logic, Pope Venerable Pius XII was a heretic as he appointed one supposed modernist Cardinal/bishop after another.
The same applies to Popes Saints John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II.
The above applies also the "modernists" appointed by Pope Benedict XVI.
The Open Letter is garbage.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald,
Vale. Continue to enjoy the "erudite" musings of MT
Mark Thomas, you ask if I have read the letter. How about YOU give well argued and scholarly rebuttals to each point that the open letter makes?
Think the letter is garbage? Prove it.
Guys -
MT either enjoys getting into our heads or, he truly and breathlessly utters PF's name at regular intervals throughout the day. He is ALWAYS right. We, and most importantly, the priests who have provided guidance and correction here in the past are NEVER right. Google him, he posts similarly on other blogs. Just ignore him and let him continue authoring and posting his prideful screeds for as long as our genial host permits.
When you return and address each point that the letter raises, do not merely argue that their opinion is incorrect.
Please just address whether or not the words or actions described actually occurred, and whether or not such words and actions COULD be interpreted in a way to cause concern among the faithful.
Because if the words and actions did occur as described, and if the faithful might become confused and think the pope has become a heretic, then I think even you may stop being surprised at concerns over your Francis.
I’m still chuckling at John Nolan’s first paragraph.
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