But it does beg the question why we don't see His Holiness kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament:
Vatican Media photo of#PopeFrancis kissing the feet of South Sudan President Salva Kiir as he prays and begs for peace.
Vatican Media photo of
48 comments:
repulsive. I can't imagine any other Pope in my lifetime lowering himself like this
While I understand the sentiment, given the low likelihood of this type of gesture ever being reciprocated, I find the lowering of oneself like this to be a compromise of his personal dignity and that of the Church. At some level, I find this to be disturbing.
Pope???? I'm not so sure.....
This is ridiculous ands a complete disgrace. This is exactly why I am now attending the Methodist church. It isn't just 'this Pope," who is a complete laughing stock, it is the Church that has become a social activist/ecumenical left wing political organization. I'll bet you won't find a protestant minister (well, maybe Episcoplians) engaging in such nonsense.
"He emptied himself and took the form of a slave..."
A Christ-like gesture.
Bee here:
But he won't let someone kiss his ring?
God bless.
Bee
I don't see any major difference between Pope Francis' action in question versus the countless times that Popes Saint John Paul II and Benedict XVI begged this or that group...begged the world...to forgive the Church for Her children's "Past Sins."
Said Popes, in effect, knelled before non-Catholics to beg forgiveness for sins committed in the name of the Church.
When Pope Saint John Paul II visited Greece in 2001 A.D., and was greeted with much hatred from Eastern Orthodox clergy and laymen, part of the shakedown process to permit the Pope's visit was the following:
Pope Saint John Paul II was required to stand before Eastern Orthodox bishops as a list of grudges against the Catholic Church was prested to the Pope.
Fingers were even wagged at Pope Saint John Paul II.
But he agreed to the Eastern Orthodox demand in question.
Pope Saint John Paul II responded by having begged the Eastern Orthodox for forgiveness.
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https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-may-05-mn-59656-story.html
Pope John Paul II, in a sweeping statement of regret aimed at healing Christianity's east-west divide, begged God's forgiveness Friday for sins committed by Roman Catholics "against their Orthodox brothers and sisters," including the plunder of the Byzantine capital by 13th century Crusaders.
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There are Catholics who condemned the "groveling" in question conducted by Popes Saint John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now, Francis.
I see said "groveling" as the actions of holy, humble Popes who desired forgiveness, unity, and peace.
Deo gratias for our above holy, humble Roman Pontiffs.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Disgusting
I want him to kneel in front of Cardinal Burke and then maybe I’ll believe he might have some humility.
Where is Urban II when you need him! Deus Vult
Gene,
If you were living in Chicagoland you wouldn't be going to the Methodist Church. They have outleftwinged looned the left-wing loons here!
I will agree with "A Christ-like gesture". I will guess that the Popes kneeling before the Blessed sacrament takes place in private
Anon @ 5:50: The Kenotic Christology of emptying himself does not refer to specific acts, rather to a self-understanding. Becoming a slave refers to the Suffering Servant but, again, not to a specific act. Jesus had little use for political leaders of any kind and would certainly not have kissed their feet. Now, he may have kissed the feet of some poor widow or beggar, which would have been much more in character and in line with his own self-understanding. But, there is no account of that anywhere. I have a little trouble with our modern self-conscious suffering servants and their public displays.
The Pope does kneel before the Blessed Sacrament. But anyone (myself included) who has dodgy knees will tell you that it is not the kneeling that is the problem, it is the getting up again; and genuflexion is out of the question.
In the Use of Sarum there is no genuflexion, and this applies to most medieval Uses. Going down on one knee had secular connotations, as it was part of the feudal act of homage.
I'm still trying to visualize Pius XI or Pius XII kissing the feet of Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin, and the world's reaction had they done so. I don't think 'Christ-like' would have come into it. After all, Jesus did not abase Himself before Herod or Pilate.
Anyone know of any pics of humble Francis doing this to Christian leaders? Or leaders of capitalist countries?
Inquiring minds want to know what THE message is that Francis is sending.
Christ spoke to Pilate about this. I think it will depend on whether the leaders of the Sudan are humbled by the gesture or satisfied by it.
Gene, you need to get up to our FSSP parish. It isn’t Heaven but we do talk about it a lot.
How would Trump receive this gesture from Pope Francis. I know that Paul VI kissed the feet of the Patriarch of Constantinople I think in the 1960's which caused a stir. I am not aware of a pope doing this kind of gesture to a secular leader, but I could be wrong.
I don't know enough about these men and how they would perceive the gesture and I haven't really seen too much in blogdom from left leaning commentators about their take on it. Has anyone else?
Kenosis, in the light of the Incarnation, is much more than "self-understanding."
The Kenotic Hymn includes, "...he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross." This is not self-understanding, but the material, experiential expression of Jesus' self-understanding.
Isaiah teaches, "He bore the punishment that makes us whole, by his wounds we were healed." Jesus bore that punishment in His body, not in His self-understanding. The wounds that healed us were not to His psyche, but to his physical self.
Kenosis does not refer to a specific act. It refers to a whole life lived in self-service to others, including multiple acts of generosity, compassion, self-humbling, and forgiveness. These acts will be condemned by others. "If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner.”
These acts will be misunderstood by those who think they have much to lose or who resist the grace needed to move them beyond their fears. "This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.” Those who misunderstand the acts will use words like "repulsive" and "disturbing" and "ridiculous" and "a disgrace."
Trump would be thrilled. And that is his - and our - tragedy.
Of course, on Holy Thursday, Pope Francis has been the first pope to kiss the feet on men and women, Christian and otherwise. To be honest with you I think this gesture is not perceived in the best way possible for those who witness it.
There are sexual connotations to this which are perverted or fetish like. I think it is best eliminated.
I checked the National "Catholic" Reporter just now and nothing yet from them about this gesture.
Here are many photos of Pope Francis kneeling:
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AWUB_enUS792US810&biw=1094&bih=474&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=2YewXPCmCJCisAXY063wDA&q=pope+francis+kneeling&oq=pope+francis+kneeling&gs_l=img.12...20334.20334..22872...0.0..0.54.54.1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.tOdkdngPvcw
Pax.
Mark Thomas
https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/11588/in-extraordinary-peace-gesture-pope-kisses-feet-of-south-sudan-s-leaders
11 APRIL 2019, THE TABLET
Pope kisses feet of South Sudan leaders
by Christopher Lamb in Rome
The extraordinary gesture is likely to go down as one of the most dramatic of the Francis pontificate.
"For five years they were at war with each other in a bloody conflict that has killed 400,000, left six million starving, four million displaced from their homes and a devastated economy.
On 11 April 2019, the President of South Sudan, Salva Kiir, and his former vice-president Riek Machar sat together on a sofa in the Casa Santa Marta in the Vatican as Pope Francis appealed for them to persevere with their fragile peace agreement and “remain in peace”.
After finishing his talk the Pope stood up from behind his desk, walked over to the warring leaders of the world's youngest state and knelt down and kissed both of their feet.
Machar, who was taken aback by the gesture, appeared to try to stop the Pope from bending down in front of him. Francis told him: “let me.”
Along with Kiir and Machar, the 82-year-old Pope also bent down to kiss the feet of the other political leaders gathered in the room including Rebecca Nyandeng, the widow of John Garang, the man who helped bring about an independent South Sudan.
Nyandeng was in tears during the encounter, which is likely to go down as one of the most dramatic peace gestures of the Francis pontificate.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, choking up with emotion after witnessing the scene said: “We have heard the prophetic call of Christ. We now commission you as ambassadors of peace.” He handed each of the leaders a Bible with the following message: “seek that which unites. Overcome that which divides.”
By any worldly measure, South Sudan’s problems seem insurmountable and might be best left to the intercession of St Jude, the patron of saint of hopeless causes.
But not everyone has given up hope. It was Archbishop Welby’s idea for Kiir, a Catholic, Machar, a Presbyterian and South Sudan’s Christian and political leaders to come to the Pope’s home for a two-day spiritual retreat.
“Peace is possible,” Francis told them during his remarks. “I shall never tire of repeating this: peace is possible!”
Like a retreat director, the Pope urged leaders to examine their consciences and ask “what does the Lord want me to forgive and what in my attitude does he want me to change?” He added: “We may well have made mistakes, some rather small, others much greater. Yet the Lord Jesus always forgives the errors of those who repent.”
Urging them to put their differences behind them, Francis said that the people of South Sudan "are wearied, exhausted by past conflicts,” that they are “yearning for a better future, which can only come about through reconciliation and peace.”
After completing his prepared remarks the Pope made some unprepared remarks directed at Kiir and Machar. "With my heart” he told them, “remain in peace” despite future difficulties that may come.
“There will be many problems," he said "but do not be fearful, go forwards, solve the problems. You have begun a process: may it finish well. There will be disagreements between you both, yes. These also should remain in the office, but before the people, hands united. In this way, as ordinary citizens you will become Fathers of the Nation."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"There are sexual connotations to this which are perverted or fetish like."
And kissing hands and rings? Does that tickle your libido, too?
I see priests who pop the fingers that held the host into their mouths after receiving communion themselves. (Sexual connotations?) Then, they go on to distribute communion with the very fingers they had sucked. (Your germ phobia must now be in overdrive.)
Youtube video of the event in question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma3TtbVTwDQ
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Pope Francis' beautiful, humble gesture to stir hearts and minds in favor of peace.
How sad that certain Catholics have trashed Pope Francis' holy and humble gesture.
Anyway, I am certain that God is pleased with our God-loving, holy and great Culture of Life Pope's humble effort to bring peace to a war-weary nation.
I love the Vicar of Christ, Pope Francis.
Deo gratias that our Heavenly Father has blessed us with such a holy, humble Pope of peace in Pope Francis.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Anonymous at 8:30
I think you are confusing Trump with your lightbringer, Obama, who in his Berlin speech referred to himself over 400 times! You need help
A@9:11--you know a lot about fetishes. Interesting.
A@9:11--you know a lot about fetishes. Interesting.
Yes. However, you brought up sexual fetishes with no prompting. Telling.
Anon @ 8:29, Kenosis is, indeed, much more than self-understanding, but it is certainly that. It does not include groveling on the ground before other Gods. (See Ezekiel)
Hmmm! you brought up these others which are not as well known as the foot ones without prompting. Interesting.
Have you ever heard of male lovers drinking champagne out of their female lover's slipper or high heels? Tell me your stories about the one's you are an expert on.
I have a sexual fetish...liberal tears excite the Hell out of me.
Just don't kiss the tears off their faces unless, like Joe Biden, you ask permission.
Gene,
You win the best comment of the day!!! Bravo!
In 1965 the osculations at High Mass (which affected the deacon and the priest) and which were not replicated at a Missa Cantata) were abolished. Of course, in the EF they are still there.
Cardinal Heenan wrote a wry article for the Catholic Herald entitled 'When the kissing had to stop', a reference to a popular movie of the time.
Fr McDonald
Reference Tom Lehrer's 'Wienerschnitzel Waltz':
'I drank some champagne from your shoe, tra-la-la,
I was drunk by the time I was through, tra-la-la;
For I didn't know when I raised that cup,
It had taken two bottles to fill the thing up.'
Hand fetishism or hand partialism or also Quirofilia is the sexual fetish for hands. This may include the sexual attraction to a specific area such as the fingers, palm or nails, or the attraction to a specific action performed by the hands; which may otherwise be considered non-sexual—such as washing or drying dishes. This fetish may manifest itself as a desire to experience physical interaction, or as a source of sexual fantasy
TMI! 🖐👆🏿🤟🏽✌️🤜🤛🙏🦶🤙🏿✍🏿
"How sad that certain Catholics have trashed Pope Francis' holy and humble gesture."
Yes Mark Thomas, and just think how the islamic world is viewing the submission of THE representative of Christ at the feet of muslims...
Those mean and nasty Catholics just dont understand... but islam does....
See? This is why Latin is so useful. If this was in Latin I wouldn't be able to be disgusted by it.
rcg,
And the bulk of the clergy would be right there with you!
Dan said..."Anyone know of any pics of humble Francis doing this to Christian leaders?"
In the room with the Pope were "Kiir, a Catholic, Machar, a Presbyterian and South Sudan’s Christian and political leaders..."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Oh my, Mark, Mark, Mark, how can you be so obtuse? They are not Christian leaders, they are Muslim leaders. I just read it on the internet so it MUST be right. Reports that the leaders are Christian are fake news.
I was going to post the link but have decided not to do so because it is so poisonous and despicable. But you will find it if you search under “Pope Francis kisses feet of Muslim leaders.”
Instead I will post excerpts from Pope Francis’s Message on World Communications Day in January 2018
http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/communications/documents/papa-francesco_20190124_messaggio-comunicazioni-sociali.html
“The term ‘fake news’ has been the object of great discussion and debate. In general, it refers to the spreading of disinformation on line or in the traditional media. It has to do with false information based on non-existent or distorted data meant to deceive and manipulate the reader. Spreading fake news can serve to advance specific goals, influence political decisions, and serve economic interests. . . .
“None of us can feel exempted from the duty of countering these falsehoods. This is no easy task, since disinformation is often based on deliberately evasive and subtly misleading rhetoric and at times the use of sophisticated psychological mechanisms. . . .
“We need to unmask what could be called the ‘snake-tactics’ used by those who disguise themselves in order to strike at any time and place. This was the strategy employed by the ‘crafty serpent’ in the Book of Genesis . . .
“What is at stake is our greed. Fake news often goes viral, spreading so fast that it is hard to stop, not because of the sense of sharing that inspires the social media, but because it appeals to the insatiable greed so easily aroused in human beings. The economic and manipulative aims that feed disinformation are rooted in a thirst for power, a desire to possess and enjoy, which ultimately makes us victims of something much more tragic: the deceptive power of evil that moves from one lie to another in order to rob us of our interior freedom. That is why education for truth means teaching people how to discern, evaluate and understand our deepest desires and inclinations, lest we lose sight of what is good and yield to every temptation. . . .
“Constant contamination by deceptive language can end up darkening our interior life. Dostoevsky’s observation is illuminating: ‘People who lie to themselves and listen to their own lie come to such a pass that they cannot distinguish the truth within them, or around them, and so lose all respect for themselves and for others. And having no respect, they cease to love, and in order to occupy and distract themselves without love they give way to passions and to coarse pleasures, and sink to bestiality in their vices, all from continual lying to others and to themselves.’ (The Brothers Karamazov, II, 2).”
I guess some people cannot tell North from South.
“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”
Fake News - New York Times and the Washington Post - writing innumerable false stories of President Trump's imminent demise.
CNN - 55 interviews of Avenatti who was going to take down Trump and run for president.
I could go on, but this should be sufficient.
All of the above are purveyors of fake news aka propaganda designed to appeal to their unhinged readers.
TJM,
And your point is what exactly” But Johnnie did it too?
Extremely bitter, aren't you Bean....
Dan,
I am not Bean, I am not bitter, and they were not Muslim leaders. You just struck out. Congratulations.
But, hey, who cares about actual FACTS, right?
I have just noticed that I incorrectly posted the link for Pope Francis’s Message on World Communications Day in 2019 rather than 2018 when I quoted from it in my post at 11:30 p.m. on Friday. Sorry about that. Here is the correct link:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/communications/documents/papa-francesco_20180124_messaggio-comunicazioni-sociali.html
Not Bean? Well darn, I was going to order something from your catalog.
I only thought you were bitter based upon your comments and how the wording reflects upon the core personality of the one who posts them. You may want to work on that non-bitter anonymous poster who claims Bean is not himself.
Dan:
It is difficult to make sense of your comment. However, no, I am not bitter at all. But I_am_ passionate about combatting lies and falsehoods. Why? Because without a commitment to the truth, which is foundational to everything else, all conversation is just manipulation and pointless. If I were bitter, I wouldn't care and wouldn't bother.
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