Friday, June 22, 2018

IF JESUS FOUNDED THE CHURCH, WHICH HE DID, WHY LEAVE?


Gus Lloyd of Seize the Day was having a discussion on Mass attendance by Catholics. In 1955 it was about 75% of Catholics each Sunday. Today it is in the 30% range but lower in the northeast.

Why is that?

One caller said that non-denominational sects have strong outreach to include as many people as possible and when they get them in the door it is fun to go to church with a rock band like experience, a hip preacher dressed in a hip way and a great 30 minute motivational talk. When you leave you feel good.

I would say that it is a loss of Catholic identity, spirituality and liturgical universality since Vatican II. And no one cares if Jesus founded the Catholic Church or not in this malaise. So any church or no church will do.

The style of celebration of the pre-Vatican II Mass was set and rigid and did no vary from parish to parish. There was no creativity and the priest didn't matter nor did the homily or sermon. That all changed with Vatican II and the priest now matters, his homily better be good or else and creativity with music and a number of other things causes the Mass to be different from parish to parish and country to country. In other words, your personal tastes are way more important in 2018 than in 1955. In 1955 your personal tastes did not matter except if you preferred a low or high Mass.

For me, the fact that Jesus' founded the Catholic Church was and is the most important and that He said the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. That is the bottom line for me and keeps me a Catholic.

Obviously there are peripheral issues that have hurt us which is also tied into the loss of clergy and laity Catholic identity--the sex abuse scandal and the manner in which the bishops have dealt with it. This is a great turn off and if you are coloring book Catholic, with a coloring book Mass and piety, how can you survive as a Catholic? 

What do you think?

12 comments:

TJM said...

If I were choosing based on our current leadership, PF and my "archbishop" Cupich, I would definitely leave the Church. But loons and apostates come and go, but Jesus is with us always.

Victor said...

It seems what you are saying is that the Mass today is more about the people there, than about God. It is mainly about what the people want and like, not about what God deserves which is worship. In former times, the official "liturgia" that people went to to fulfill their duty of "religio" to God is now about active participation which by definition centres on the people, not God.

The liturgical movement from the outset last century saw the liturgy as something mostly man made, and accordingly changeable to suit man, rather than the work of the Holy Spirit through the ages, and therefore to be treasured as a gift from God and not as a scholars' playground for manipulation which is what happened at Vatican II.

Anonymous said...

The clergy must be catechized! They lost their priestly identity or rather gave it away for a mess of potage. Not all. It depends on their bishops and the seminaries. Look at Arlington diocese, for the most part, priests there are well educated because the bishop(s) make sure their seminarians attended seminaries that cared for instilling priestly and catholic identities. Look at the Priestly Society of St. Peter. Every one of them is an outstanding individual and a holy priest as are the various other priestly groups who say the TLM. And I would include here even the SSPX. I attended one Sunday Mass at their new Virginia seminary about a year ago just to see for myself if they really are Catholic. Many people attend there in addition to the seminarians and staff. Confessions are available before Mass and people, men, women, children, stood in line, the chapel was full.

What I am saying is, Catholicism was built on scripture and tradition. V-2 literally threw the baby with the bath water. The NO is the solvent of liquid modernity in which Tradition is dissolved and Catholic identity looses its form and meaning. Nothing left to transmit to present and future generations. To most Catholics the Church is just another denomination. If it is true, as some reports indicate, that the Holy Father will permit interfaith communion if the local ordinary permits it than we have achieved Christian unity but at what price?!

Gene said...

I must say that it is getting more difficult to remain Catholic. But, protestantism is pretty much in the same boat as Catholicism in terms of secular humanist thinking, poor or no theology, and lip service to doctrine. Soon, it will not matter where you go to Church other than for aesthetic preferences.

Dan said...

I hate to say it, but all the recent (and obvious) pandering to the culture, has me looking at VII in a different way. It is as though the ecclesiastical authorities would sell the soul of Church in order to be popular.

Carol H. said...

Gene,

Protestantism will never have the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. That alone is enough to have me remain Catholic. If all else crumbles, we have the extensive writings of the Saints and Fathers of the Church to keep our souls on track. Pray and fast for good and holy priests, and the Lord will provide them. Pray the rosary and the angelus daily to combat evil. We must hold fast, we already know the ending... the Immaculate and Sacred Hearts will triumph!

rcg said...

There is a young man who is inquiring about Catholicism that told me he didn’t feel as ‘happy’ with Mass as with the Protestant services. We are discussing now the difference between ‘happiness’ and ‘joy’.

ByzRC said...

Dan said...
I hate to say it, but all the recent (and obvious) pandering to the culture, has me looking at VII in a different way. It is as though the ecclesiastical authorities would sell the soul of Church in order to be popular.

Or, in addition to the popularity component, it is an attempt, perhaps last-ditch, by ecclesiastical authorities to mainstream what I suspect for many of them is normal.

ByzRC said...

Anonymous Gene said...
I must say that it is getting more difficult to remain Catholic.

True. However, on the Eastern side of the street, we watch what goes on from a relatively unaffected vantage point. Should someone say something, more often than not I remind them they are mostly speaking about the Romans.

Anonymous said...

Go, but Extra Ecclesial Nulla Salus.

Gene said...

Anon @ 8:49, There are a number of ways to exegete that statement, which has been way misused by the Catholic Church. If the Church maintains its present course, it will be "only outside the Church will you find salvation."

Anonymous said...

"If the Church maintains its present course, it will be "only outside the Church will you find salvation."

Nope, not possible.

While the salvific action of Jesus Christ extends beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, the Church is and will always remain necessary for salvation.