Wednesday, June 20, 2018

FOR THE STATE, BE IT THE USA, TO SEPARATE CHILDREN AND PARENTS--IT IS A MORTAL SIN


Pope Francis gives another interview and some interesting responses to questions.

From the Vatican Insider:

The Pope on U.S. Migrants: the separation of children from their parents is “immoral”

Francis interviewed by Reuters takes up the bishops' words in criticizing Trump's policies. On immigration in Italy: no to rejections, but the crisis must be tackled with the whole of Europe. And says he has no plans to resign
andrea tornielli
vatican city
Separating children from parents as is the case with migrants on the Mexican border is "immoral". Pope Francis says it in an interview with the Vatican journalist Phil Pullella of the Reuters agency, saying he is against the decision taken by the Trump administration to separate the families of those seeking to enter the United States. In the summary published by the agency, the Pope showed optimism on the progress of the negotiations that could lead to an agreement on the nomination of bishops in China. Francis also spoke of the scandal of child abuse in Chile and said he may accept more bishops’ resignations.


Under President Donald Trump's zero-tolerance immigration policy, the US authorities plan to criminally prosecute all immigrants caught crossing the Mexican border illegally: holding adults in jail while their children are sent to government shelters. Bergoglio declared to Reuters that he shared the statements of the US bishops who called the separation of children from their parents "contrary to our values" and "immoral". “I am on the side of the bishops’ conference” the Pope said, adding that the situation “It’s not easy, but populism is not the solution”.


The populists, for the Pontiff, "are creating a psychosis" on the issue of immigration, even as aging societies like Europe are faced with “a great demographic winter” and thus need more immigrants. Without immigration, he added, Europe “will become empty.”


The Pope then spoke about the Aquarius, the ship run by two humanitarian associations forced to disembark in Spain 629 migrants it had rescued from the sea because the Italian government refused access to ports. Bergoglio, answering a question on the decisions taken by the Minister of the Interior Matteo Salvini, said: “I believe that you cannot reject people who arrive. You have to receive them, help them, look after them, accompany them and then see where to put them, but throughout all of Europe”. 
  
In the interview, Francis also spoke of the internal conservative opposition, explaining that he prays for those who say "nasty things" about him. The Pope said that the future of the Catholic Church is "on the streets" and assured that he wants to appoint more women to head the offices of the Holy See, because women are more capable of resolving conflicts, although this should not lead to "masculinism in a skirt". But at the same time, as he had already done several times in the last five years, Francis excluded the possibility of the female priesthood: "John Paul II was clear and closed the door and I do not come back to this. It was something serious".  
  
Finally, regarding his health, Bergoglio said to be well despite the pain in his legs related to a back condition. He reiterated that perhaps sooner or later he may resign for health reasons as his predecessor Benedict XVI did in 2013, but added: “Right now, I am not even thinking about it.”

54 comments:

TJM said...

PF should stay out of this manufactured crisis at the border. Trump is following the law signed by Bill Clinton and followed, to some extent, by Barack Obama. If I were Trump I would transport them to the Vatican and let PF take care of them. What did PF say about the mothers and fathers who sent up to 10,000 children unaccompanied across the challenging terrain to the US where they were in mortal danger from gangs and pedophiles? Are they "parents of the year" in his mind? PF also fails to consider that there are studies which show African Americans and our own poor are greatly disadvantaged by an onslaught of illegal aliens who are a huge burden on our already stretched social services.

I find it very interesting they come to the US at all because our media and the dems (but I repeat myself) are constantly harping how fascist and evil our government is.

Dan said...

Wait! Is this the same pope who was silent in the run up to the abortion vote in Ireland?

Anonymous said...

MYTH: IMMIGRANTS TAKE AMERICAN JOBS
FACT: 7.6% of immigrants were self-employed compared to 5.6% of native-born Americans and they founded more than 40% of Fortune 500 companies.
- George W. Bush Presidential Center

•A U.S. Department of Labor study prepared by the Bush Administration noted that the perception that immigrants take jobs away from American workers is "the most persistent fallacy about immigration in popular thought" because it is based on the mistaken assumption that there is only a fixed number of jobs in the economy.
•Experts note that immigrants are blamed for unemployment because Americans can see the jobs immigrants fill but not the jobs they create through productivity, capital formation and demand for goods and services.
•Immigrants pay more than $90 billion in taxes every year and receive only $5 billion in welfare. Without their contributions to the public treasury, the economy would suffer enormous losses.
- ACLU

Undocumented immigrants contribute about $12 billion a year in state and local taxes alone.
Undocumented immigrants also subsidize Social Security: Through payroll taxes, undocumented workers add another $12 billion a year toward supporting Americans in old age.
Over a decade, those two figures would add up to about $740 extra for every American, based on the current U.S. population.
- MIC.com (citing other sources)


Anonymous said...

TJM, every word you just wrote was wrong, inaccurate, misleading, delusional & false witness.

Anonymous said...

I wish the PF would read TM's statements. Maybe we could copy this and mail it to him.
TJM I hope you are not a priest.

Gene said...

When felons who are parents here are arrested, they are separated from their kids. So what? People coming here illegally are criminals. This is nothing more than another non-issue that the Left has grabbed to attack Trump.

Dan said...

Well, it has already been shown that the original photos of children in cages that were being used to condemn Trump, we're in fact taken during the Obama administration, I believe it is safe to assume that this practice has been going on for sometime. Also, these facilities have been being funded by votes by the same congress members feigning outrage.

Given what I know of human nature, it is not unreasonable to worry that at least some of the children are kidnap victims in the arms of people willing to do anything to get in.

Perhaps a temporary separation and dna testing would be a reasonable idea.

TJM said...

Anonymous here is how your Abortion Drooler Obama handled this issue, lots of pictures too!

http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities

TJM said...

another article for you to consider:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/06/20/4-reasons-why-separating-border-children-is-the-only-humane-choice/

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Funny how some clerics in the Church seem to know exactly what sin is when jibes with their political agenda, but when it conflicts with it...not so much.

Oh, yeah...and to Anonymous at June 20, 2018 at 11:14 AM
FACT: Mexican immigrants, illegal or otherwise, sent about $24 BILLION dollars a year out of the USA presumbly to relatives back home. That's no small chunk of change that is not circulating (buying goods and services) here. Over $120 BILLION leaves the country per year via monies sent by all immigrants of any nation.

God bless.
Bee

Daniel said...

Congratulations to the U.S. Conference of Bishops for also speaking out against this inhuman policy.
I'm proud that the Catholic Church -- since my childhood and long before -- has always stood with immigrants and taught us to treat the "strangers among us" as fellow members of God's family.
This would not be a political issue except for people who want to exploit resentment & fear for partisan purposes.
"Which of these men was truly his neighbor?"


Anonymous said...

Crossing the border is not a crime. These people are not charged with crimes. Coming to the American border to seek asylum is completely legal. Herding these people into, essentially, concentration camps, is evil and inhumane.

Anonymous said...

TJM:

If you try to prove your point by posting a link from a Soviet-backed, fact-free propaganda outlet (Breitbart), you're not winning.

Anonymous said...

Trump just signed an Executive Order stopping the separation of children from parents at the border.

Anonymous said...

Other newsflash: Cardinal McCarrick hast just been removed from ministry for sexually abusing a minor, FINALLY TBTG!

Anonymous said...

$120 BILLION goes home to poor countries. $120 BILLION buys what these families need, not BMW's, not YETI coolers, not $10,000.00 in surgery for the beloved family pet.

I know this because I have worked with illegal immigrants. The money goes home, to Mexico and Central America, to keep families fed, to clothe them, and to pay for education where it is available.

I don't see too many 'Mericans suffering want because $120 BILLION is not circulating here.

And consider, if the $120 BILLION did not go home to keep families alive there, then there is more than a fair chance those folks would be on your doorstep here.

Anonymous said...

President Trump just signed an executive order that, he says, will keep families together.

This is precisely the action he has said repeatedly he COULD NOT DO - and then promptly and falsely said it was the Democrats who caused the problem.

There's a fair chance that this EO is designed to throw the question into the courts since it is directly opposed to the law regarding detention of minors. Then, Trump can blame the courts when they find his EO wanting.

Dan said...

Daniel, show me a bishop that would not call the police if a bunch of homeless, or illegal immigrants made a camp outside his door. If you do that, I'll show you the bishop that isn't a hypocrite.

TJM said...

Anonymous Kavanaugh,

Yes crossing the border other than at border entry points is a crime, not only in the US but in most civilized nations. You are conflating crossing at the border entry points with people crossing elsewhere. Nice try, but epic fail, just like the media conflating illegal immigrants with legal ones.

The Dems have a sordid history when it comes to incarceration, think of Roosevelt when he interned Japanese descent American citizens during WW II. Unlike them, these illegal aliens have no right to enter the US except with US permission.

Breitbart is an honest news outlet, unlike the New York Slimes which recently had to print a retraction on one of its hit jobs on Scott Pruitt. I doubt you looked at the pictures of people incarcerated during the Obama years, when 4 such detention camps were established.

No nation is required to accept another nation's citizens. Those nations should take care of their own. Literally, notwithstanding the fact that liberals paint the US as fascist, we could have 100,000,000 plus come here if we let them. Perhaps if they know they will receive ZERO freebies, that will deter them. But if you want them here, I propose legislation which would require liberals to pay double the taxes to avoid having the rest of the citizenry pay for their misguided schemes to inflate Democrat voting ranks. Maybe if they stopped aborting their children they wouldn't need to import replacements.

Anonymous 2 said...

I am not going to point out the several misconceptions and inaccuracies in many of the posts on this thread (on both sides). Instead I want to make a more general point.

There are decent arguments on both sides of the immigration issue. There are also many indecent ones. Unfortunately, many of the latter kind get propagated in the tribal media. And even when decent arguments get addressed, they are typically just those favoring the position of the relevant tribe, so the members of the tribe get a very one sided view. This is no way to engage in republican self-rule, and it has got to stop. This must begin by all of us taking responsibility to educate ourselves on the facts and the decent arguments on both sides, to stop demonizing one another, and then to meet face to face locally to engage with the issues.

I hate to break it to you but doing this will require hard work. The issues and arguments are complex and the relevant data can sometimes be ambiguous, although some of the applicable moral principles are pretty clear as the Catholic Church and other religious leaders recognize. I have studied the immigration area in depth (and teach it) and I still learn new things every day. But I don’t see any alternative. Our elected political leaders should be the ones doing this work. However, I don’t think we can count on them. Most of them just seem interested in getting reelected and hanging on to power by hook or by crook. So, as I have said numerous times before, we need to take back our country from the self-alienation and mutual alienation from one another that we have allowed to occur.


Daniel said...

Funny to see people here parrot spurious talking points ("When felons who are parents here are arrested, they are separated from their kids.") that they've been spoon-fed for the past week.

It's almost as if they're unable to think for themselves, do their own research or consider information from more than their Official Government Propaganda.

And these are people who want to lecture us on the state of the Church?




Mark Thomas said...

CNS:

"President Donald Trump on Wednesday signed an executive order ending the practice of separating illegal immigrant families on the U.S. border with Mexico..."

President Trump said: "I didn’t like the sight or the feeling of families being separated."
====================================================================

Pope Francis and our bishops were proved correct in their opposition to the separation of the families in question.

President Trump just vindicated their opposition to the separation of families.

Right-wingers bashed His Holiness and the bishops for having opposed the separation of families at the borders.

Will the right-wingers bash President Trump for having ended the policy of separating families?

Will right-wingers label President Trump a "communist"..."leftist"?

Pope Francis and our bishops were right to have defended and promoted Church teaching in regard to the plight of immigrants/migrants/refugees.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

TJM: please cite a legal source for your statement that crossing the border is a crime,
Please include a link,
Thank you.

Anonymous said...

If you are still mindlessly regurgitating apologia for Trump (sky is green, up is down, the lie is the truth), you are likely evil or corrupt or just not too bright.
Or maybe all three, which makes you a candidate for his cabinet.
I’m seeing some excellent candidates here.

Joe Potillor said...

The last people on earth that should be lecturing us about immigration are the same people who have been covering up abuse, and haven't seen a liberal policy point that they do not like.

To be an immigrant is of course not a crime. To immigrate without following the laws of the country that one would be entering is of course illegal. To seek asylum isn't illegal. To do so under false pretenses is of course illegal.

Considering the laws of Mexico, and say Russia, I'd argue our immigrations laws in the US are rather generous.(Let alone the fact that Mexico still has the homogenous law still on the books)

Both sides have had the opportunity to change the immigration laws so that they work better. But when push comes to shove, they've done nothing. It's almost as if they just use this topic every few years or so to keep a job as a politician. (Various executive orders have been signed, but this does not change law)

In various situations, when the crime is grave enough, children are taken away from their parents. It would not make logical sense to return children to an abusive or drug addict situation. Sometimes this is a temporary separation, other times not so much. There is something to make sure that the kids that do come actually belong to the people that are coming here, whether legally or illegally. To not do this is to ensure more human trafficking or some other grave abuse.

It's funny how some of these people who are crying for the children don't complain when children are separated from their parents via the atrocity that is abortion.

The Bishops, the pope of Rome have long lost any credibility to be listened to on this particular issue.

TJM said...

YT,

LOL. So you are better than Our Lord who said: Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." Newsflash Caesar has a duty to protect his people and the Church mission is to save souls.

If you belong to the left and today's perverted Democratic Party, you are on the side of abortion (slaughter of the innocents), gay marriage (sodomy), and suppression of religious liberty a la Obamacare. The Democratic Party's platform is intrinsically evil and if they are allowed to import more illegals, this nation will descend into chaos.

PF and certain of his bishops have bought into the goals of the political left and for that they face imperiling their immortal souls. May God help them.

TJM said...

One last point.

Why isn't PF screaming about the ITALIAN government turning away the muslim boat invaders? Is he afraid the Italian government will shut off his air conditioning? Come on PF, man up! Speak Truth to Power!!!

Carol H. said...

This is just the latest example of the Dems' Saul Alinsky tactics.

This is not a new problem caused by Trump's Zero Tolerance Policy; this is a decades old problem that the Dems are blaming on Trump because they want citizens to hate him. Laura Bush and Michelle Obama complained about this problem during their husbands' administrations because it existed back then as well. The Dems try to blame problems that they themselves could not solve on Trump because they assume that he won't be able to solve them either. They are doing their best to obstruct him from doing his job so they can claim that he hasn't accomplished anything.


I pray that Trump will solve the immigration problem, but considering that the Dems really don't want it solved, I'm not sure how much he can do.

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Anonymous at June 20, 2018 at 4:27 PM said: "$120 BILLION goes home to poor countries. $120 BILLION buys what these families need,..."

Hate to tell you this, but there are plenty of very poor people in THIS country, that might have good paying JOBS, if that money leaving this country was spent on goods and services HERE and not sent out to support the world.

The FACT remains that immigrants bleed the USA of money that deprives American citizens of a decent living wage. I don't own a BMW, I don't own a whatever-that-is cooler, and if my dog gets sick and it will cost more than $100 to get him well, it will be see ya' later Pal. You present a very skewed notion of a typical American.

And what about the FACT that many immigrants who worked their whole lives in the U.S. and earn Social Security, retire to their home country and get paid those US dollars in a foreign country, and spend it there, on that economy, not here, like Americans do?

Funny how Mexico and all other countries of the world have and enforce tough immigration laws that keep this sort of thing from happening, but in the U.S., if we insist on enforcing our laws, we are (according to the Socialist Leftists), immoral and inhumane.

Gotta love the logic of that....

God bless.
Bee

Anonymous Kanavan said...

TJM, the arguments against immigration haven’t changed much since the Know Nothing Party in the 19th Century, have they? Except then it was all about “Papists.”

Anonymous said...

"Hate to tell you this, but there are plenty of very poor people in THIS country, that might have good paying JOBS, if that money leaving this country was spent on goods and services HERE and not sent out to support the world."

Poor people in this country and in western countries in general have access to support from government, from secular social service agencies, from churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples. That is not commonly the case in the rest of the world and it is most certainly not the case in third and fourth world countries. The funds sent home keep them alive, keep a roof over the heads, pay for education.

The goods of this world are not given to us by God for the benefit of the few, and most certainly not for the benefit of 'Mericans. Try again to understand the Universal Destination of Goods, which, to your dismay, is the doctrine of the Catholic Church. No one has a right to what he/she wants when there is someone in need.

Why are you opposed to the freedom immigrant workers - and American works who want - to live in retirement in another country. That's their right - why do you want to abolish that right?

The logic you propose - Me and Mine vs You and Yours - is the tragic cause of most of the wars and suffering in our world. That logic, while it keeps you in the style to which you have become accustomed, is the logic that perpetuates, well, violence.

Victor said...

The whole reason for this separation is that all people caught crossing into the U.S. illegally are referred for criminal prosecution. Under that policy, adults are sent to jail under the auspices of the Department of Homeland Security, while children are held in facilities run by the Office of Refugee Resettlement. In other words, the parents are criminals, felons, because they broke US law, and like any criminal parents in jail, their children are taken away from them.
Now there is an exception to this with Mr Trump's executive order if you are an illegal alien. Many of these migrants know that they will be denied entry into USA for asylum because politicians look at the world through politics and will only recognise political refugees such as those fleeing political violence, and not other violence such as from gangs and domestic disputes, nor economic refugees where people are destitute and on the point of starvation. So you have migrants crossing illegally into the USA. It may be a game with government officials from where some of these migrants come, but Homeland Security takes crossing illegally quite seriously. Indeed, near the Canadian border you still see the occasional rusty sign for people to report to the nearest border station if they had used a back road to enter either country, something which locals in the area often did both ways for convenience. It was not a big deal. But since 9/11, everything has changed. Just look at those living in that village where the border goes right through it, those living in Stanstead Quebec/Derby Line Vermont. If you cross Canusa street to the other side into USA from Canada you will be immediately arrested and probably barred for 5 years if not life from entering USA again if you are not a US resident, where before 9/11 it made little difference if you lived on the Canadian or American side, because you were friends and neighbours in virtually the same village, and the border guards and police knew you. Very sad what has happened.

TJM said...

Anonymous Kavanaugh, if you like members of your flock being murdered by MS 13 members aka new Dem voters that's your moral problem, one of many of yours. Voting for the Abortion Party is soul killing.

What is it about liberals that they hate their own? DACA (Democrats Against Citizens of America)

Anonymous Kanavan said...

TJM: Nobody I know has ever been murdered by MS-13. Nobody you know has ever been murdered by MS-13. Nobody Donald Trump knows has ever been murdered by MS-13.

Many, many more people have been murdered at America's schools by our "well-regulated militia."

The MS-13 issue is a red herring for the suckers, invented to fire up the simple-minded, the submissive, the easily led, the low-information folks who jump for every racial and ethnic dog whistle. The useful idiots, if you will. Hello there.

Dan said...

Anonymous Kanavan... you're utterly incorrect. I spent 6 months volunteering in a homeless shelter just down the road from the Rio Grande... Essentially 100% of the homeless served were Mexican men that were either attempting to avoid Mexican prisons, or just released from Mexican prisons. They felt the US prisons were preferable and also coming to a new place would let them start their own drug running empire. Almost all of them had murdered someone. All who had claimed it was necessary.

TJM said...

Anonymous Kavanaugh,

I guess you missed the President's State of the Union where a couple of African-American families were front and center and whose daughters were murdered by MS 13 animals. You a mindless shill for the Abortion Party who obviously can't add 2 and 2 and get 4. Take your meds

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Anonymous at June 21, 2018 at 8:40 AM said:

"The logic you propose - Me and Mine vs You and Yours - is the tragic cause of most of the wars and suffering in our world. That logic, while it keeps you in the style to which you have become accustomed, is the logic that perpetuates, well, violence."

The logic YOU propose as to the cause of violence and suffering is unsubstantiated opinion, and well, just plain goofy. In fact, the entire Liberation Marxist ideology you are spouting is just plain goofy. It's a nice thought experiment dreaming of utopia, but it's a miserable failure in practice everywhere it is tried. That's because Marxism denies Natural Law, and is based on envy and greed.

But I wonder why you don't wonder why the governments of the countries where immigrants come from and send money home to are not building strong and wealthy societies like we see in the United States. After all, the example is out there for everyone to see. "The role of any national government is to protect the safety and well-being of its citizens and the sovereignty of the country's borders." (reference.com) So why are immigrants' governments not creating the structures that bring about wealth and prosperity for their own people, promoting the well-being of their own citizens?

And why are Marxists claiming our government is immoral for protecting our country's borders?

Because the Marxists are attempting a bloodless coup, that's why.

No. Thank. You.

God bless.
Bee

TJM said...

Bee I always love to see your posts and shudder when I see the fake Catholic priest's posts. God Bless You!

Anonymous said...

We prayer regularly: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed by they name. They kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..."

We pray that God will will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. Is there poverty in heaven? No.

So the idea that this is a "utopian" dream in directly contrary to what we pray for each day.

The Universal Destination of Goods is also not a "utopian" idea. It is, without doubt, the Church's teaching. "CCC 2403 The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise."


If you consider God's will for material good to be an unattainable utopian goal, then others may argue the same about marital fidelity - it's just a utopian ideal that can't be achieved. Or about the evil of respecting all human life from conception to natural death - it's just a utopian goal. Or any other requirement of Divine teaching - they're all just utopian goals that are based in Marxist-Libertarian thinking.

No, the universal destination of goods can be realized. It is our own sinfulness that stands in the way.

TJM said...

Hey suckers on the left, here is why the internet is such a blessing, it exposes frauds like Nancy Pelosi:

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/06/21/nancy-pelosi-2014-lets-not-politicize-children-detention-facilities/

But that was then and this is now. LOL

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Anonymous at June 22, 2018 at 7:48 AM said: "We pray that God will will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. Is there poverty in heaven? No."

Well, let me ask you. Is there hunger in heaven? No. Is there a need for sleep in heaven? No. Is there tiredness and weakness and sickness in heaven? No.

I think your argument lacks something critical, in that the human condition is pretty un-avoidable, including economic difficulties. In heaven we are released from the human condition. Are you really that obtuse, or do you think I am? (I don't think you are that obtuse. I think you think I am....)

I notice you also didn't address why the the governments of third and fourth world countries are not making their countries livable and wealthy. Well that figures. You don't want to hold the governments of those countries responsible, or the people themselves. That's not the point, is it? Your point is to justify criminal entry into this country, and the sending of wealth out of our country by minimizing the culpability of that act by the person doing it, and pointing a finger instead at the presumed selfishness and callousness on the part of citizens who see the problem as a problem. And that is cheap argumentation (i.e., not even keeping to the topic and speaking to the problem presented.)

If a man whose kids haven't eaten for two or three days goes into a store and holds up the cashier to get money, and is apprehended by the security guard and taken to jail by the police, why blame the store owner for having the robbery stopped or the police for arresting him? Yes, you can have some sympathy for the man's dire situation, but since when does the desperation of a situation negate a crime (or a sin)?

Your morality has too many holes. Like Swiss cheese.

You try to take the high moral ground and speak as if you are promoting the teachings of the Church, but the real truth is you are washing away key elements of the Gospel, especially the part about personal responsibility not to sin. People who come into this country illegally are sinning. When they work here and send that money to relatives living outside the country they are stealing, which is a sin. When you help them to sin, you too are sinning.

God bless.
Bee




Anonymous said...

"I think your argument lacks something critical, in that the human condition is pretty un-avoidable, including economic difficulties."

This comment suggests that GRACE cannot overcome that which you say is "unavoidable" in the human condition.

I say, and the Church says, that GRACE makes all sin avoidable.

"I notice you also didn't address why the the governments of third and fourth world countries are not making their countries livable and wealthy."

Some do not have the material resources to do so. Some have had corrupt governments that have worked to make a few wealthy while leaving the multitudes in desperate poverty. (Sin) Some are still suffering under the effects of colonialism that stripped them of their material wealth. (Sin)

"If a man whose kids haven't eaten for two or three days goes into a store and holds up the cashier to get money, and is apprehended by the security guard and taken to jail by the police, why blame the store owner for having the robbery stopped or the police for arresting him?"

I would not blame the store owner. Nor would I blame the man whose children were starving. Nor would the father be guilty of sin.

Facts is Facts said...

Robbing a store is a crime. Seeking asylum in the US is not.

However, most people who are accused of crime are not separated from their children (unless they're judged to be flight risks or a danger to society or their kids).

Anonymous said...

Bee here:
Facts is Facts at June 22, 2018 said.."Robbing a store is a crime. Seeking asylum in the US is not."

Ah, but these illegally entering immigrants are NOT seeking asylum. They are looking for economic opportunities. There is a process in place for legal entry for those looking for work. The topic however, is regarding those who attempt to circumvent that.

"However, most people who are accused of crime are not separated from their children (unless they're judged to be flight risks or a danger to society or their kids)."

And these people attempting to enter the country illegally are not flight risks? I rather doubt that.


God bless.
Bee

Anonymous 2 said...

Bee:

“People who come into this country illegally are sinning. When they work here and send that money to relatives living outside the country they are stealing, which is a sin. When you help them to sin, you too are sinning.”

I have kept silent since my last post at 5:28 p.m. on June 20 and have just watched the debate as it unfolds on the thread, noting valid as well as invalid points on both sides and hoping that everyone is able to identify which are which and learn from the valid ones.

But now you have gone too far and I can keep quiet no longer. I hope that the priests here will provide instruction correcting your gross generalization and providing the necessary nuance distinguishing among different situations.

Anonymous said...

Summa of Thomas Aquinas

Question 66

"It is not theft, properly speaking, to take secretly and use another's property in a case of extreme need: Because that which he takes for the support of his life becomes his own property by reason of that need."

Anonymous 2 said...

By the way, President Trump continues his psychological abuse and gaslighting of the nation over the immigration issue (and much else besides). Thus in yet another striking example, it was hard to believe one’s eyes when one read on the back of Melania Trump’s $39 jacket yesterday: “I don’t really care, do U?”, all denied or explained away of course in classic gaslighting fashion (pun intended): “no, you really didn’t see what you saw and, if you did, no there was no hidden message (Melania) and yes there was a hidden message aimed at the fake media (Donald)."

“What does the back of the jacket say, Winston?”

Don’t fall for this twisted manipulation by the Manipulator-in-Chief. Oh, and don’t count on an immigration fix before the elections. I could be wrong but I strongly suspect Trump doesn’t want one. He just wants to see us all (members of Congress, immigrants, media, you, me) dancing around in the wind (or should that be whims?) so he can demagogue the immigration issue to death and get votes for Republican candidates (not that the Democrats are totally innocent in this respect, though).

As I keep on saying, it’s time for us to take our country back, I mean really this time. And as I have also said, we need to educate ourselves properly on the immigration issue (and other issues) so that we can engage in responsible republican self-rule because we certainly cannot count on the clowns in Washington D.C. to display the necessary virtue as the Founders intended our political leaders should.


TJM said...

Bee, you realize you are speaking to a corrupt, apostate priest who supports the Abortion Party and is imperiling his and others immortal souls.

TJM said...

Anonymous 2,

No president ever lied and prevaricated to the American people more than Obama, the suppresser of freedom of religion and lionizing the murder of the unborn. Obama created these detention centers and his minions, like Nancy Pelosi, said at the time we should not "politicize" the separation of children from their parents. It is not equitable nor just that American taxpayers shoulder the burden of millions of unskilled people who want to flee to the US. Let Canada and Mexico take their "fair share" to borrow a phrase from the political left. If YOU want to sponsor, house, feed and clothe an MS 13 thug, please do, but make sure your life insurance is paid up. I swear, academics are among the most naive and ignorant portion of the US population

Anonymous said...

In what word is it apostasy to quote the doctrine of the Church from approved sources?

Oh, yes. That is the case in TJM's world where Breitbart is a trusted news source....

Anonymous said...

Bee here:

Anonymous at June 22, 2018 at 10:30 AM said: "I would not blame the store owner. Nor would I blame the man whose children were starving. Nor would the father be guilty of sin."

Ah, situational ethics at work. A slippery slope indeed!

And Anonymous at June 22, 2018 at 2:46 PM said quoting the Summa:

"It is not theft, properly speaking, to take secretly and use another's property in a case of extreme need: Because that which he takes for the support of his life becomes his own property by reason of that need."

Funny how the Anonymous here cite Thomas Aquinas and rely on his theology only when it suits his/their argument. Otherwise, Aquinas is generally ignored.

Mankind, it seems, has infinite ability to rationalize wrongdoing and excuse themselves before God and man. Very unhealthy for the soul. God is not mocked.

God bless.
Bee
P.S. @TJM: I know... :-)

Anonymous said...

""I would not blame the store owner. Nor would I blame the man whose children were starving. Nor would the father be guilty of sin."

No slope. Just the Church's teaching.

"Funny how the Anonymous here cite Thomas Aquinas and rely on his theology only when it suits his/their argument. Otherwise, Aquinas is generally ignored."

Funny how YOU ignore what Aquinas (and the Church) say about the subject of a starving person stealing and whether or not this constitutes sin.

I'll stick with Aquinas and the Church and you can keep waving your silly "Marxist Slippery Slope" banner to your heart's content.

Anonymous 2 said...

TJM:


“No president ever lied and prevaricated to the American people more than Obama.”
Wrong. Obama lied and prevaricated but Trump tops the charts for showing disrespect for the truth:

https://www.statista.com/chart/12338/how-trumps-lies-compare-with-obamas/

I do not defend Obama’s falsehoods. Why do you defend Trump’s?

“Obama created these detention centers and his minions, like Nancy Pelosi, said at the time we should not ‘politicize’ the separation of children from their parents.”

Yes, the Obama administration had such detention centers. He was, after all, called the “Deporter-in-Chief” by critics, especially for his policy during his first term (but you and other Trump disciples conveniently overlook Obama’s aggressive immigration enforcement of course—except when it suits your purpose of defending Trump that is). And context is so important. Given limited resources and considerations of equity, in his second term Obama sensibly exercised prosecutorial discretion to target certain groups for deportation from within the interior (especially those with a criminal record), leaving other undocumented immigrants alone. Related, when Congress failed to do its job and address the problem of reforming our immigration system, the Obama administration tried to use Executive authority to effectuate much more limited systemic reforms, such as DACA and DAPA (the latter being enjoined by the courts):

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

As for the family separation policy at the border, the Obama administration policy separated parents and children in far fewer situations than Trump’s policy. In particular, they did not have a zero tolerance policy prosecuting every single noncitizen adult making a unlawful border crossing.

“It is not equitable nor just that American taxpayers shoulder the burden of millions of unskilled people who want to flee to the US. Let Canada and Mexico take their "fair share" to borrow a phrase from the political left.”

In case you don’t know, and you evidently don’t, undocumented immigrants pay billions of dollars in federal income taxes year (and that’s just federal income taxes let alone all the other types of taxes they pay):

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

But I agree that we need an international solution to address the problem of forced migration from the dreadful conditions in countries such as Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador (the United States also bears a significant responsibility for creating these conditions by the way).

“If YOU want to sponsor, house, feed and clothe an MS 13 thug, please do, but make sure your life insurance is paid up. I swear, academics are among the most naive and ignorant portion of the US population.”

And just what percentage of those fleeing these conditions are MS 13 members? Come on, TJM, you seem to know it all. Give us the facts. Of course, in reality, you know virtually nothing, which is why you project your own ignorance onto others.


Anonymous 2 said...

TJM:

Even though I responded to you firmly, I am not upset with you. I have not lost sight of the perspective provided by the Bryan Stephenson extract I shared on an earlier thread. Here again is one short passage from the extract:

“Embracing our brokenness creates a need for mercy. . . . I began thinking about what would happen if we all just acknowledged our brokenness, if we owned up to our weaknesses, our deficits, our biases, our fears.”

I suggest that all of us (you and I included) really try to reflect carefully and prayerfully on these words and what they mean for how we view one another, ourselves, and the issues of the day.