I am not opposed to the mandating of masks by local muncipalities, places of business or churches but I do oppose a national mandate for political purposes. Subsidiarity is important as some places are hot spots where others aren't.
I remember the Hong Kong flu epidemic of 1968. So many kids were sick that my high school was closed for a few days for a lack of students, not to flatten the curve. In those days we took for granted people would catch contagious diseases and some would die, especially the elderly, but I remember many kids, some I knew, dying of Rheumatic Fever (scarlet fever). There was no hysteria, although the household with the sick person had a quarantine sign outside their door.
And certainly I remember H1N1 pandemic a few years back, where for the first time, the common chalice was banned as well as the Sign of Peace. I knew of at least five people who died of it in Macon who knew my parishioners or were relatives. No masks, though, were mandated or was there a shut down.
Even though Catholics have always been dispensed from Sunday Mass if they were sick (a common cold though, not qualifying) we have always had sick people at Mass, with hacking coughing that is distracting, sneezing and everyone going to Holy Communion and the priest/minister touching tongues and hands while distributing, not to mention all the contagious people drinking from the common, pandemic spreading, chalice. And no one was hysterical or demanded that the chalice cease to be given. We trusted, wrongly of course, that sick people with contagion would not drink from the chalice. Yes, right!
I also remember being intentionally exposed to a friend with chicken pox when I was 4 years old so that I would get it and I got it with a vengeance. I still remember how sick I was, how itchy the pox were and that I was not allowed to scratch the pox.
And yes, children died of measles, chicken pox, mumps and other childhood contagions, especially polio.
If masks work, people who fear catching a contagious should wear an effective one and wear it effectively. If the mask protects them, they should not then make a moral issue in a self righteous, sanctimonious way, about those who don't wear them and have no symptoms although they may be asymtomaatic.
That's my problem. If masks work, the one wearing it should have some degree of confidence they won't get Covid-19 from a person near them.
43 comments:
The comparison with Covid-19 to the 1968 Hong Kong flu is not apt.
First, there was a residual immunity against the HK flu that came from the presence of Asian flu strains for 10 previous years. There is no such immunity against Covid 19.
Second, the pandemic was gaining momentum as schools were preparing to close for winter school holidays, limiting the spread.
Estimates are the somewhere around 50,000 died in the US. With Covid 19 we are at 175,000.
Where do I begin. Ok, let begin with the two things you leave out. In 1968 the population of the USA was about 2 hundred million and a very young population with baby boomer coming of age. Today we are 320 million with an aging population and a population that has grown obese by the food culture, if you want to call it, of fried foods, fast foods and chips and weeds. All of these things account for the higher number of deaths today.
Be that as it may, no response to the need for the fearful person to act like an adult and wear an effective mask that is worn effectively and change it every two hours if one is wearing it all day.
As it concerns those who don't wear a mask, treat them as adults who can make their own decision if they want to be well, get sick or die. Don't nanny them.
Chips and sweets, but weed might be true too and the drug culture.
Kamala Harris points out that there is a disportionate number of people dying of the virus from minorities and people of color due to poverty. But it is more than poverty, it is their culture of high emotions and closeness, loudneess and excitability and living in close quarters. Also the African American tradition diet, that of soul food, is a heart attack waiting to happen which leads to obesity, high blood pressure and strokes. Combine that with fast food, chips and sweets, well.....
Italian are a gregarious people too, although their Meditarian diet is very healthy and their lifestyle of going outdoors and walking a lot. However, in Italy, they live close to each other in apartment buildings and have some cultural similarities with Africans in terms of emotions, closeness and the like. This accounts for what happened in Italy in terms of their deaths in the north and that they got the most virulent form of the virus from China directly and first.
Anonymous Kavanaugh at 10:01 am,
The US population in 1969 was about 206 million. Today its about 333 million. You do the math.
“That's my problem. If masks work, the one wearing it should have some degree of confidence they won't get Covid-19 from a person near them.”
Father, I know most non-medical people don’t get this (you are not alone!): The non-surgical mask is to protect others from you, not to protect you from others. Only an N95 mask has the potential to protect you from others.
Once one truly understand this, it makes understanding others’ reactions to non-maskers a little clearer...
Bee here:
Uh oh Fr. McD, you are defying the COVID-god by speaking against him (or them, as the case may be)...and you know what happens then, Father...KARMA!
And just like Msg. Pope, Karma will come back and "bite your posterior." I have this on authority of our resident voodoo priest-amateur scientist who knows about these things.
You better watch out Father McD! You better bow down and worship the COVID-god RIGHT NOW and repent of your words, and then hide in the rectory in fear and trembling, lest what you sow in the wind you reap in the whirlwind!!!!!
And for pity's sake Father, WEAR A MASK to show the COVID-god you are not defying him (in fact, to make sure he knows you are subservient to him, wear a mask even when you are alone), and that you are obeying him and paying appropriate homage to his power over you. After all, look what happened to Msg. Pope, just for saying publicly we should not have unwarranted fear of getting the virus. Lord knows what would have happened to him had HE said people should use their own judgement about wearing masks!
God bless.
Bee
Bee here:
Re: Anonymous at August 24, 2020 at 11:27 AM:
One more note about N95 masks: they are designed to protect the wearer from contaminated environment, but they do not filter the breath going out, so anyone wearing them who has the virus is exhaling that into the environment where they are.
And this information from someone who is a OSHA 10 certified (Occupational Safety and Health Administration): regarding masks:
"Surgical Mask: these masks were designed and approved for STERILE environments. The amount of particles and contaminants in the outside and indoor environments where people are CLOGGING these masks very, VERY quickly. The moisture from your breath combined with the clogged mask will render it “useless.” If you come in contact with Covid and your mask traps it, YOU become a walking virus dispenser. Every time you put your mask on you are breathing the germs from EVERYWHERE you went. They should be changed or thrown out every “20-30 minutes in a non sterile environment.”
"Cloth masks: ALL of them offer NO FILTERING whatsoever. As you exhale, you are ridding your lungs of contaminants and carbon dioxide. Cloth masks trap this carbon dioxide the best. It actually risks your health, rather than protect it. The moisture caught in these masks can become mildew ridden over night. Dry coughing, enhanced allergies, sore throat are all symptoms of a micro-mold in your mask."
God bless.
Bee
Bee,
Comedy Gold! It appears conservatives are the only people left with a sense of humor. Our resident scold is indeed a sad, humorless, little man
Joey (Biden) says he would mandate masks, but no president has authority to do such. OK, the president does if one believes like the liberals do that the Constitution is a "living, breathing" document that "evolves" with the times. I think that is how we got Roe. v. Wade and same-sex marriage, neither of which are mentioned in the Constitution.
Yes, BEA, I understand your OSHA input, but even within N95 masks there are different categories. The N95 respirator masks are in a different category. I work in ID medicine and am following CDC guidelines.
Anon 11:27
BEA, just one more point: Surgeons wear surgical masks to protect the patient, not themselves. I’m sure no OSHA worker would want a surgeon to show up for his Cholecystectomy without a mask, right?
Over and out—I told myself weeks ago to refrain from commenting on this topic on a religious blog. Shame on me!
Anon 11:27
EXCEPT the statistics do not support your assumptions and faux science...
The number of Covid infections within the US is at last declining and the Stayes that have introduced mandatory mask wearing are leading that decline.
Bee here:
Lottie Lotus said, "The number of Covid infections within the US is at last declining and the Stayes [sic] that have introduced mandatory mask wearing are leading that decline."
And what proves that cause and effect relationship, that wearing masks is reducing the number of infections? Any "studies" done to certify that?
Because I spray my bathroom every day with Glade Tiger Repellent (sometimes called air freshener) and I have not seen ONE tiger all the time I have lived here, which proves it works!
God bless.
Bee
Lottie Lotus Kavanaugh,
Epic fail. New Yawk, Con-necticut and New Joisey, had the highest infection and death rates in the US. But for those 3 BLUE States, the US would have an infection and death rate lower than almost every "brilliant" European country you lefties drool over
The Covid-19 circus continues. I suppose fear takes over God-less politicians and their society ignoring the reliable quality scientific data.
The virus will continue to spread until "herd-immunity" is reached. Until then the most vulnerable must be protected. Sadly, the dumb lockdowns just delay herd immunity, making it more difficult to protect those vulnerable because of the longer time the virus will be around in contagious quantities. Because the virus is harmless to 99.98% of the population, lockdowns make no sense and just delay the inevitable spread until herd-immunity is reached. And it is only a delay because you cannot wipe out an upper respiratory virus, but must finally co-exist with it through natural immunity, like all other such respiratory viruses. Vaccines are a long way off if ever; vaccines for influenza, by the way, are only 50-70% effective, and it probably will be worse for a coronavirus one, so faith in science by the God-less is misplaced.
I have read that 100,000 died of the flu in 1968.
Proportioned to current US population yields the equivalent of 160,194.
Victor,
The Dem operative masquerading as a Catholic priest will likely come back with a ridiculous explanation, even THOUGH, he believes in sharing a common chalice at Mass, because somehow that practice (like his Party rioting and looting) is exempt from the application of science.
The Ministry of Truth has spoken wear your mask or we’ll put in prison. This pandemic will never end as Marxist governors are loving their new found dictatorial powers over us peasants.
As for masks check out what the CDC tells states about there use. They do not stop the Wuhan flu. The truth about this virus may some day come out. The signs that it was man-made are everywhere, but Master’s of the Universe will do everything not to hold China accountable as the results have given the party of Marx power that only Xi understands.
I have refrained from commenting on this topic for days, except to post a link to a WSJ article discussing the science behind mask wearing on another thread, a post that was destructively and predictably attacked by Anonymous TJM in true TJM ad hominem style. But I cannot be silent any longer. So, yes, Bee’s right of course—the post hoc propter hoc fallacy. Except I suppose when Donald Trump takes hydroxychloroquine and doesn’t come down with the virus, which “proves” it works because, well, the Great Leader must be right about that. Right?
I know, you will tell me that Trump never actually made that claim in those exact terms. Yes, but I bet somebody in Trumpworld did. Anyway, I can claim he did as an “alternative fact.” Just ask Kellyanne Conway. She’ll tell you all about these special facts. Better catch her quickly though; she’ll be gone soon, as she tries to repair yet another set of lives broken by proximity to the Great Leader.
Talking of which, we are told that the president has no power to mandate masks—unless of course it is the Great Leader. Then anything is possible. So, “Obama Executive Orders bad; Trump Executive Orders good,” and all the animals in the farm nodded in agreement.
Regarding Citizen’s qualms about commenting on such matters on a religious blog, concern about saving people’s lives and a desire to counteract dangerous and evil propaganda that would imperil those lives seems perfectly appropriate on such a blog. And before someone (like Anonymous TJM) raises the abortion issue again to stop this line of thinking, I would take such persons more seriously if they showed as much concern for the lives of those who are already born as they do for the lives of the unborn.
And why do I bring Trump into this conversation? Well, who has been a major culprit, probably the major culprit, in politicizing the issue of mask wearing?
“Mask wearing politicized?” they ask in other countries where some semblance of sanity still obtains. It would be laughable if it were not so tragic!
The fact that someone needs to remind us of the fact, yes fact, that wearing masks is primarily intended to protect others and not the wearer (although even for the wearer there is some protection) might be thought to counsel just a little humility on the part of those who inveigh against mask wearing. But I’m not holding my breath (although I should when I’m interacting with people not wearing masks).
And in any event, to the extent there is doubt about the value of wearing masks, why not resolve that doubt in favor of being cautious and wearing them? What on earth is the big deal anyway? It’s not as if it is a huge inconvenience. And it might (probably will) save many, many lives and serious illnesses. To insist on a refusal to wear a mask in such circumstances in the name of freedom overlooks the distinction between liberty and license.
Anonymous at 8:32 p.m. overlooks an important point. The correct comparison is not between 100,000 dead (160,000 adjusted) from the Hong Kong flu in 1968 (by the way, I was told by my parents that I came close myself at the age of 13; several children in our area in England did die) and 170,000 dead (so far) from coronavirus. It is the comparison between the number of those dead from the 1968 flu and the number who would have died from Covid-19 without mitigation measures such as lockdowns and mask wearing—a number far in excess of 170,000 and I suspect likely approaching a million. As for Victor’s post, while one should appreciate the expression of a desire to protect the most vulnerable pending achievement of herd immunity, it also spreads dangerous and inaccurate propaganda.
I have much more to say, and doubtless will have occasion to do so as this thread develops further.
Anonymous at 8:32,
So the Flu of 1968 was as deadly (with NO lockdown) as the current China Flu. No wonder "father" Kavanaugh has not come back with a snappy, left-wing talking point rejoinder.
But here is one for him:
"Vernon Jones, a Georgia Democrat state Rep., said during the Republican National Convention (RNC) on Monday that the Democrats are “infected” with the “pandemic” of “bigotry, socialism, and anti-law enforcement bias.”
If he disputes Represenative Jones, he must be a racist!!!!
Here is another example of how far gone intellectually the Democratic Party is:
Rep. Steve Scalise (R-LA) today:
“Nancy Pelosi just called Republicans “domestic enemies.” I was shot because of this kind of unhinged rhetoric.”
Prime example of people using real numbers and bad math to stretch the truth
No, the COVID death rate is NOT “0.04 percent.” Stop it. Just stop. Stop. Put down your pencils. Your middle school math teachers are embarrassed.
To get an accurate death rate for the disease, you divide the deaths by the total cases that HAVE AN OUTCOME. Let’s walk this through.
As of right now, there are 5,671,984 COVID cases in the US. 175,617 people have died because of COVID. 3,028,393 people have recovered.
You do NOT DIVIDE the deaths into the total population. EVER! NEVER! Certainly NOT to determine the death rate. To get an accurate number, it’s really simple.
Add the total recovered to the total deaths: 3,204,010.
Now, divide 175,617 by that number: 5.48%.
If you get COVID, you have a 5.48% chance of dying.
By comparison, Influenza has infected around 39,000,000 people this last season, with around 50,000 deaths. That’s a 1.28% death rate.
You are five times more likely to die from COVID if you get it than you would if you got the flu. It’s not the flu. It’s not even a cold.
And stop pretending you understand statistics if you’re going to spread that “0.046% death rate.” It’s wrong. Dead wrong. And just wear a damn mask
President Trump banned travel to and from China and was called "xenophobic and racist" by Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden etal while the Dems were pursuing an unconstitutional impeachment. Dr Fauci said that this action probably saved thousands of lives. Dems accusations of racism did not wear well, so much so, Chuck Schumer deleted that statement from his website. The Party that cheers the deaths of millions of the unborn each year is hardly a party one should seriously pay attention to when addressing matters of life and death. And the Dem operatives who post here should also be ignored.
As of right now, there are 5,671,984 COVID cases in the US. 175,617 people have died because of COVID. 3,028,393 people have recovered.
Shame on you! That is not true!!! That is the number testing positive since tests began not the current number because no one has counted that. Apart from the umber who have died the vast majority of that 5 million had no symptoms to mold and serious symptoms but have recovered.
Shame on you! Go redo your Math! You get an F- on this!
More people have died this year from pneumonia than covid. Check the CDC website. Moreover, if a personal has a terminal illness, such as cancer, the death is counted as a covid death even if the person is dying from cancer.
In regard to the information about masks that Bee posted on August 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM:
From the AP:
https://apnews.com/afs:Content:9101740032
CDC did not say wearing a cloth face mask traps carbon dioxide and ‘risks your health’
By ALI SWENSON
July 16, 2020
CLAIM: Photo shows a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report with many claims about face masks, including that cloth masks trap exhaled carbon dioxide and collect mildew within 30 minutes, risking your health.
AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The document in the photo is fake and falsely attributed to the CDC, the agency told The Associated Press. The CDC recommends the use of cloth face coverings in public settings to slow the spread of the coronavirus.
THE FACTS: On July 13, a photo allegedly showing a CDC report began to gain traction on Facebook.
The document in the photo, which racked up more than 200,000 views in two days, is made to look as though it was printed from a CDC webpage, but the CDC told the AP it is not real.
“CDC typically does not issue guidance or recommendations to the public in such a format,” said Jasmine Reed, a public affairs specialist with the agency.
A closer look at a circled section of the text on the fake report shows its guidance does not match the CDC’s legitimate guidance on masks.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Snopes also disputed several claims promoted by the "information from someone who is a OSHA 10 certified (Occupational Safety and Health Administration): regarding masks:"
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
Chew on this:
The U.S. has indeed recorded the highest total number of COVID-19 deaths in the world, but adjusted for population the nation falls to number 10, behind numerous countries in Europe and South America, including the United Kingdom and Spain.
Perhaps more notably, more than a third of the American deaths Biden cited have occurred in the Democrat-run states of New York, New Jersey and California.
'There are lies, damned lies and statistics.' This aphorism has been variously attributed to Mark Twain, Benjamin Disraeli and AJ Balfour. It is a truism in that statistics can easily be manipulated to suit a previously arrived at conclusion.
In March the British government imposed a lockdown which effectively prevented me from working (I'm a private tutor) but more significantly shut down the economy and put the entire population under what amounted to house arrest. Churches were closed for the first time since the interdict of 1208; alehouses were closed for the first time ever (even Oliver Cromwell never achieved that). Whether HMG acted constitutionally, or even legally, is something that will be debated for some time to come.
There was no relaxation until the beginning of July. But along with that came an edict which required face-coverings to be worn in shops. This was to encourage people to feel safe shopping again, after having been frightened (deliberately and cynically) into staying at home. It has not had the desired effect; the High Street has yet to recover, if it ever will.
As a free citizen in a democratic country I might have expected to be told what the risks from this virus were. It is only now that information has been released. My own county, Buckinghamshire, is quite large in geographical area and although mainly rural includes a large conurbation (Aylesbury) with a significant population of Asian origin. So it is not untypical. Out of a population of 535,000 the number of recorded cases of COVID-19 stands at 1,800. So my chances of catching it were 0.3%. I could have lived with that. Of those who died with COVID-19 the mean age was 80. Those few who died with COVID-19 under the age of 50 had underlying medical conditions.
Faced with record unemployment and national bankruptcy I hope people will realise that their faith in 'scientists' and 'experts' was misplaced. But I won't hold my breath.
“The fact that someone needs to remind us of the fact, yes fact, that wearing masks is primarily intended to protect others and not the wearer (although even for the wearer there is some protection) might be thought to counsel just a little humility on the part of those who inveigh against mask wearing. But I’m not holding my breath...”
...Nor am I A2.
Last Sat, my daughter’s nieces played their first soccer game in Columbia SC, where masks are mandated, against a team from Hilton Head. All of their team wore masks and spectators socially distanced; NOT ONE of the H.H. players or spectators wore a mask, and most of their spectators only socially distanced if someone complained. My daughter was so appalled she left after the first match of a 2-game series. She hated that because she hadn’t seen her nieces in five months.
The gift that will keep on giving...
But your comment hit the nail on the head, even if unintended. When anyone feels uncomfortable with what someone else is or isn't doing in terms of spreading Covid-19, they should leave, no matter what. But they can't or at least should not require everyone to leave. I know that Hilton Head has strict mask requirements, but I don't know if that applies to outdoor events. It certainly does not apply at the beach and beach goers are cautioned to physically distant themselves from others if they aren't of the same family.
the same is true for Mass. We are dispensed from attending. In our diocese we recommend a mask, but don't mandate it, unless the county does. In my parish, the majority wear a mask but some in principle won't. We don't turn anyone away. However, if anyone feel uncomfortable in our church, they should leave or move to another location in the church itself, They should not bitterly complain about others, but take care of themselves and make difficult decisions in our contagious age.
Snopes should dispute and then completely disregard YOU Mark Thomas.
Thanks for trying, Mark Thomas. But as you can see from Anonymous’ ridiculous comment at 2:10 p.m. the diabolical evil of pandemic misinformation has spread so extensively (and yes, I mean diabolical literally, think about it) that it has closed some minds irreparably it seems. Unless of course the person posting the comment is just another Russian troll trying to foment discord and confusion, which is the other diabolical evil we have to combat.
And you will doubtless notice that when comment posters have no arguments in response to the substantive point, they resort to the usual ad hominem attacks on the person making the point. And they think people are stupid enough to still fall for this ancient logical fallacy. Sadly, in some cases perhaps they are right.
John Nolan,
Yes, from what I can tell following British news, Boris Johnson and his merry band have badly mismanaged the pandemic in England just as it has been so badly mismanaged over here.
Anonymous 2,
Yes, the Governors of New York, Connecticut and New Jersey, who are primarily responsible for the health, safety and welfare of their citizens did a terrible job
Looking at that picture made me think of the silly hand-holding at the Lord's Prayer. Oh, and the obligatory raising them higher at the "For the kingdom and the power....." Who started that silliness? I really hope when this is all over, they don't go back to that.
Anonymous,
I am quite prepared to concede mismanagement at the State level. That is why I phrased my comment as I did. But I bet anything you like that you won’t concede mismanagement at the federal level at all, although you would be all over it if Obama were in the White House. Prove me wrong.
Anonymous 2 at 3:43pm
Your fixation on Russia and Russian spies, which you have posted about previously is alternately fascinating and frightening. You must live in a very sad world unable to trust people since you continually refer to spying, although I am willing to concede that your posts come off as semi intelligent. However, they cannot hide that there is something not quite right.
I hope you will one day be freed of this curse and go on to live a peaceful well balanced life.
Anonymous 2,
Well while President Trump was gathering his task force and shutting down flights, your Party was engaged in a faux impeachment and screeching “racism!” The President’s biggest mistake was listening to Hillary supporter Dr. Fauci who kept flip-flopping in his guidance, but after all, he is a “liberal” and that is what liberals do!
Russia said again:
First, please get your facts straight. I am not “fixated” on Russia and Russian spies, and I only very rarely, not “continually,” refer to spying, and then almost exclusively in the context of a response to a blogger called TJM, whom I sometimes refer to as Anonymous TJM when he posts under an Anonymous to see how he likes a taste of his own medicine of referring to bloggers as Anonymous K (i.e., Father Kavanaugh). (By the way, he has not denied being TJM in disguise, so it is a reasonable assumption that my identification is correct,)
Second, my world is not little and sad at all. On the contrary. And the only people I have a real problem trusting are those who play stupid little mind games instead of actually engaging in reasoned conversation—like a good many posters (or is it really just one?) on this blog and pretty much everyone in Trumpworld, two groups between which there seems to be a not inconsiderable overlap.
Third, I appreciate the concession regarding my posts. However, with respect to their being unable to hide that something is not quite right, I quite agree. There is a lot that is not quite right, and much of it is on regular display on this blog. Oh, and the pot should beware of calling the kettle black.
Fourth, I know it is fashionable in Trumpworld to disregard and dismiss our intelligence agencies (and indeed expertise in general), and any suggestion that the Russians are trying to interfere in the 2020 elections but FWIIW:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2020_United_States_elections
Draw your own conclusions.
Fifth, never forget the Fox Mulder principle: “Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me.”
Anonymous 3:
Yet another display of the incapacity to engage in non-binary thinking I see—on several levels. Sad.
And if you are the same person as Anonymous at 5:08 p.m. on August 25, then, just as I thought, you have not proven me wrong and unsurprisingly I win the bet.
By the way, I have no Party. The Party that represents my way of thinking doesn’t exist in this corrupt system with its degraded politics. The only way to proceed, then, is to choose whichever Party seems on balance to be the lesser of two evils. What is your Party? The Republican Party? Not if you support Trump it isn’t—that’s the Trump Party. The Republican Party is dead and gone. One can only imagine what John McCain would say about the depths to which his Party has sunk.
Even though it does not represent me, I could vote for the Republican Party candidate under the right circumstances and have done so in the past. Indeed, had John Kasich been the Republican nominee in 2016 I would have voted for him. And we know whom he is supporting this time, don’t we? And why is that? Because some of us cannot possibly vote for the charlatan and imposter and swamp creature par excellence who currently inhabits and desecrates the White House. I have been watching some of the Convention this week—a massive exercise in gaslighting if ever there was one. No true conservative can support such a charlatan and imposter:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/24/opinion/trump-conservatives-republicans.html
And to bring it back to religious principles, as we must, nor can any true Catholic—except possibly over the issue of abortion. Otherwise, how can anyone who calls themselves Catholic support a candidate and a Party that traffics in such lies and deceit? Of course, all politicians do this to some extent. But Trump and the Trumpists have taken it to a whole new level.
But none of this makes me (or John Kasich) a Democrat. The Democrats have their own problems and issues, not the least of which is their abject failure to make more room for those of us who are pro-life. The “big tent” is far too lopsided. Unless and until they find a way to make such room, they run the serious risk of subjecting the country to four more years of buffoonery and incompetence, not to mention the incessant lying, deception, and gaslighting.
Anonymous 2 at 8:39
We do in fact have some common ground in your post. I support neither party's candidate and I cannot in conscience vote for "the lesser of the 2 evils".
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