Young priests trying to recapture the past glory of the Roman Rite prior to the Second Vatican Council don’t have a clue what the Mass was really like in most parishes.
Don’t get me wrong. I think most parishes tried to celebrate the Mass well and reverently and Catholics were well formed in the reverence, mystery and awe of the Mass.
But the vestments of most ordinary parishes were quite simple and economical.
In my pre-Vatican II parishes, I do not recall the use of fiddle back (Roman) vestments only simple Gothic vestments with nice material but nothing fussy or prissy. And most simple parishes only had one or two chasubles of the same color.
This is too fussy and prissy for my tastes and I think the vast majority of manly men priests prior to Vatican II:
I think the EF Mass in most ordinary parishes today would do well to follow pre-Vatican II customs in the simplicity of vestments like the first photo below which is prior to Vatican II and the other two post-Vatican II recreations:
Don’t get me wrong. I think most parishes tried to celebrate the Mass well and reverently and Catholics were well formed in the reverence, mystery and awe of the Mass.
But the vestments of most ordinary parishes were quite simple and economical.
In my pre-Vatican II parishes, I do not recall the use of fiddle back (Roman) vestments only simple Gothic vestments with nice material but nothing fussy or prissy. And most simple parishes only had one or two chasubles of the same color.
This is too fussy and prissy for my tastes and I think the vast majority of manly men priests prior to Vatican II:
I think the EF Mass in most ordinary parishes today would do well to follow pre-Vatican II customs in the simplicity of vestments like the first photo below which is prior to Vatican II and the other two post-Vatican II recreations:
19 comments:
I'm OK with either one. Neither looks too "fussy" or "prissy" to me. BTW, thanks for including a photo of Fr. Dawid.
I wouldn't be so hard on these young priests. Their use of the fiddleback chasubles probably just reflects an appreciation of tradition. I can't really fault them for that. Think of it this way. A young man wants to get married. Instead of renting a traditional-looking tuxedo with tails, he pushes it a big further and wears spats on his shoes (a-la 1920's). No big deal...just a nod to a past that is a little further back.
The second photo is of the late Bishop Basil Meeking who occasionally would say Mass at St. John Cantius in Chicago. Wonderful man.
🐝
The music in those pre-1970s Masses was often terrible, and "quickie" daily Mass in skipped/mumbled Latin was quite common....much of this led to the push to reform things in Catholic circles more on what was an exploding "evangelical" protestant model of exhuberant singing and emotional manipulation and huge crowds, more a mob mentality than proper worship or true conversion.
I was of those veterans of protestant services of the time and went to (gasp) whore of Babylon and Greek Orthodox services in looking for meaning and answers, and by and large there were not any to a seeker. But, they had SOMEthing deeper even if their own practitioners were ignorant, and if anyone had asked me even then, it would have been easy to tell them where the Catholic changes were going to end...with young people as me leaving and looking for answers elsewhere.
Even now, my faith and spiritual practice as a Catholic has been far more the result of diligent and dogged determination to discover the truth of the religion through own digging and research, than ever to anything ever learned or seen in a parish.
Mostly, even then, it was apparent most members were indistinguishable from anyone else in the world, in what was truly important to them, and in their daily lives, the only difference being they did not disguise themselves at liquor stores and bars, and mainly they were slaves to rote mumbled unfelt prayer while protestants were addicted to emotional highs.
It was only through studying the history, early Fathers, works by ancient spiritual directors, writings of truly holy men and women that it was discovered what this SOMEthing was, the vast majority of which is all unknown to most nominal Catholics.
My reconciling to Holy Church was done in the modern Mass, where the priest and parish was striving to be holy, and this reflected in their worship and music and their prayerfulness at all times, there always those there making a heartfelt offering of themselves to God.
Most modern Mass parishes have none of that, nor even an opportunity, and I prefer Latin Mass parishes as at least it is possible to attempt to spend time with God in them, SOME, a FEW, even before and after Mass as people have true reverence for God and his presence in HIS house. But most, across the board, treat it as THEIR house. Which is a problem no fussing over music or vestments or language or rite can ever repair. Those other externals are self-healing when people are there out of love for their God.
And incurable without that love.
Father, your so called prissy priests are standing next to the artwork of the late Ade Bethune. That particular piece of artwork was commissioned for father Geral Ellard's wonderful book Christian Life and Worship. Father Ellard, a pre-Vatican II liberal, best book was this which he revised many times between 1933 and 1956.
"Fiddlebacks" and appreciation of tradition.
More ancient, by far, than the so-called fiddleback chasuble, is the full cut chasuble which is based on the ancient Roman paenula, a full cut semi-circular garment that covered the arms.
When, in the time of St. Charles Borromeo, the chasuble had suffered severe minimization, the great saint found it necessary to reassert tradition in the design of the garment.
"In the 16th century, Saint Charles, objecting to these extreme modifications [minimizations], laid down his regulations to remind priests and vestment-makers of the importance of preserving the centuries-old Tradition. It was obviously regarded by S. Charles as most important that the chasuble continue to be a garment that fully covered the celebrant, being both long (reaching almost to the heels) and wide (51 inches, between the elbow and the wrist)." http://saintbedestudio.blogspot.com/2008/02/styles-and-tradition-in-chasuble-of.html
James - I didn't realize that was an Ade Bethune work - thanks. I've appreciated her work for many years. In fact, I chose her rendition of the Sacred Heart of Jesus as the holy card for my ordination.
In all seriousness as to vestments, many priests come from cultures where richly ornamented vestments are the norm, and likewise their churches....and to some, they appear roccoco cluttered and overdone.
However, priests have always been adorned richly since the time of Moses, standing in for their people who could not dress so richly, and we all formerly were of like mind in wearing our best clothes as a sign of respect to our Lord and King.
I have no problen with gold brocade, lace, or any other finery....I have a major problem with polyester potato sacks and intentionally choosing the least expensive and most lame ornamentation strictly out of being cheap and wanting only the wear-ever nature of mechanic work clothes with half the beauty.
Churches should build the finest they can afford, outfit their priests in the finest they can afford, and this includes deacons and altar servers who should be supplied black slacks and shoes if unable to afford their own.
Likewise all those who serve before the Lord in any official capacity should also wear their own very best while acting in an official capacity, and since they generally are superfluous to a Mass and this strictly voluntary, their clothing should be self-supplied and be stipulated simply as to wear the best they have, by whatever local custom and climate dictates as suitable wear to meet any dignitary of high rank.
I can't quite figure out if your real frustration is with elaborate vestments, or with fiddlebacks.
After all, there is no lack of low cost, no frills fiddlebacks out there.
Ade Bethune illustrated "My Sunday Missal" by Fr Stedman. It's one of the best hand Missals, IMO, since it is genuinely pocket sized and is fairly easy to use.
As for vestments, I think it depends on the church. Flowery vestments don't seem at all over the top in a lot of heavily ornamented older church buildings. Also, I imagine you tend to see more elaborate vestments at the EF today than before the council because younger priests probably grew up in an artistic desert of liturgical minimalism and are now reacting against it.
Bob at 4.19pm,
Your comments here are about the best I've ever read on this blog during the almost 5 years I've followed this blog.
What you wrote is so TRUE.
Thank you.
KPK.
The most common type of vestment in the English-speaking world both pre- and post-V2 is the one shown in picture 2 - damask with orphreys, the latter often in gold (as here) although blue orphreys are often used for Marian feasts. One advantage is that the pattern is more-or-less the same front and back, so this vestment can be used in either orientation. When the Anglican Church started using chasubles in the late 19th century this style was popular as it was seen as 'Sarum'.
Ecclesiastical vesture is subject to fashion. Lace and brocade in male dress would not have been seen as 'prissy' in the 18th century. The conical chasuble is not easy to wear and was cut down in the second millennium to make elevations easier. But generally vestment styles are not driven by liturgical considerations.
I think it's a mistake to go too far in trying to match vestments to church architecture. Admmittedly the London Oratory (Italian Renaissance church) never uses 'gothic' vestments, but the Oxford Oratory (gothic revival church) has vestment sets in both styles.
Nor should ideological preference come into it, whether you're AWN Pugin or St Charles Borromeo. The 'Borromean' chasuble never really found favour and many priests say it's uncomfortable to wear. The idea that the Novus Ordo requires minimalist vestments and minimalist architecture to suit a minimalist liturgy sends (in my opinion) the wrong signals. And the SCR was surely wrong when it tried to impose 'Roman' vestments on the whole Church. In any event, it was largely ignored.
I remember seeing elaborate vestments in the Cleveland Museum of Art. They can be found at the link:
https://www.clevelandart.org/art/collection/search?i=1&search=chasuble
No, I don’t recall the older pre Vatican 2 vestments being that ornate. They certainly were an improvement over the modern tablecloth style. I wonder if the newer TLM vestments are influenced more by the Byzantine. In the pre internet days they wouldn’t be as well known as today. I do think the modern TLM is going to be an improvement over the last one simply because it is a renaissance Mass. I do hope I am able to see one !
I could be wrong, but I think the flowery vestments are the vestments that the priest's family and home parish gifted to him for his ordination. I have watched FSSP ordinations online, and many were of this type. Something special to commemorate a special day.
I wasn't saying the style of vestments should match the specific style of architecture in the sense that gothic churches should only use gothic style vestments. Rather, I meant to say that elaborate vestments and lace come off quite differently in a very ornate church (regardless of the specific style) and may seem much less "over the top" than if you used the same in a plainer sort of church.
To give another example: if I want to paint my house ten different colors, the effect is very different depending on the style of my house and the surrounding neighborhood. It might come off as downright conservative on a grand old Victorian surrounded by other "painted ladies," while the same color scheme might seem too wild in a beige subdivision and make me a lot of enemies.
I also think the reason many older posters here remember simpler vestments from before Vatican II is because simpler designs in almost everything were all the rage starting in the 20s and especially after WWII. Modern traditionalists are likely looking back in time further when using more elaborate vestments. Liturgical Arts Journal often posts pictures of very elaborate designs from the 18th and 19th centuries.
Personally, I like variety. The EF I attend has the full gamut of vestments, from antique gold brocade fiddlebacks to flowy gothic.
Bee here:
DJR, thank you for the link to the chasubles at the Cleveland Museum of Art. The members of our altar guild, St. Martha's Guild at St. John Cantius Church in Chicago just love to look at the detail of this kind of work. We learn so much just by seeing the designs and types of embroidery done to accomplish the beautiful images on these vestments. Thank you.
God bless.
Bee
I prefer the more ample St. Charles Borromeo or St. Philip Neri style chasubles, myself. More ample but not as... faux ornate as many fiddlebacks appear. St. Bede's Studio has a good article series that shows that Rome resisted the fiddleback style the longest... Look at some of the vestments of say, St. Pius X wore. Or his near contemporary in Los Angeles, Abp. John Cantwell... definitely not as narrow as what are near uniform in the FSSP today.
1940s style Gothic style as worn by Fulton Sheen have a certain elegant simplicity to them but unfortunately are guilt by association to the horribly gaudy neo-Gothic polyester vestments of the 1970's novus ordo.
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