Eleven years ago today, His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, like Jesus who went to limbo on Holy Saturday to release the Old Testament figures who awaited His coming, released the Traditional Latin Mass from limbo in the museum vaults of liturgical history.
Priests who were prepared could celebrate the EF Mass the following September on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Cross, September 14th, which I did.
Priests who were prepared could celebrate the EF Mass the following September on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Cross, September 14th, which I did.
22 comments:
Answer: Yes.
South Georgia is SO rigid. Priests here still think it is 1971.
Poorly trained folks in the pews still think Vatican II abolished the Traditional Mass.
Liturgical musicians still think Amazing Grace is a Catholic song.
I still think this is the liturgical wasteland.
It would be interesting to know if membership in the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests (AUSCP) and being willing to celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass are, as a matter of fact, mutually exclusive.
Rigid, biased, and dumb
"It would be interesting to know if membership in the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests (AUSCP) and being willing to celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass are, as a matter of fact, mutually exclusive."
No.
Anonymous,
My query was not about whether unwillingness to celebrate the EF is an actual prerequisite for AUSCP membership--I'm quite sure it is not. The question has more to do with whether, in actual fact, there are any AUSCP priests who celebrate (or are truly willing to celebrate) the EF.
In other words, does the mindset of desiring membership in the AUSCP (with its purported "liberal/progressive" principles and reputation) militate against being willing to celebrate the EF in actual practice.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tak.
The so called "traditionalists" love to quote this passage from Benedict XVI. However, they never quite the two sentences that precede this passage, and one cannot help but wonder if they leave it out because it contradicts their agenda....anyways Benedict XVI begins that paragraph with,
There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.
Anonymous
'No' to what? That it would be interesting to know? Or that the two are mutually exclusive?
If AUSCP is anything like its Irish counterpart, it openly dissents from Church teaching, and the Tridentine Mass doesn't really come into it.
Carter,
The problem is this: There is a certain legal (and theological) parity between the two forms. Both are sacramentally valid and legally permissible forms of the Mass that any priest (in theory) can celebrate. Despite these facts, the reality is that the EF is not treated by most clergy as having that parity. It is comparatively rare to find and I would venture to say that most (at least most older) clergy still have a certain understanding of the Second Vatican Council and liturgical principles that militates against their being willing to celebrate the EF. There are people who want the EF and there are still more who would attend once they've experienced it and learned something about it. The problem is too few priests are willing to celebrate it because their thinking is prejudiced by their understanding of what good liturgy should be.
The query was, "It would be interesting to know if membership in the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests (AUSCP) and being willing to celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass are, as a matter of fact, mutually exclusive."
The answer is, "No, membership in the Association of U. S. Catholic Priests (AUSCP) and being willing to celebrate the Extraordinary form of the Mass are not, as a matter of fact, mutually exclusive."
Now, if you want to alter the query, have at it.
Anonymous,
If there are no AUSCP priests willing to celebrate the EF then, as a factual matter ("as a matter of fact" or in actual reality--not based on AUSCP membership rules) then the two ARE mutually exclusive.
I didn't alter my query---maybe you didn't understand it the way I meant it to be understood. My query had to do with attitudes of AUSCP members--not membership rules.
Thanks, Anonymous, for that rare clarification. Your original one-word reply was ambiguous. However, a quick trawl through the AUSCP website with its politico-religious agenda would seem to suggest a mutual exclusivity at least in practice. The original query did include 'as a matter of fact'.
Unless, of course, you have evidence to the contrary.
The original query mentioned nothing about "attitudes" of AUSCP members.
Yet you seem surprised that others did not understand that it was about attitudes, when, you didn't mention attitudes...
If you or Mr. Nolan want "evidence," I suggest that the people to ask are - wait for it - members of the AUSCP.
If, on the other hand, as your original query and subsequent comments suggest, you simply want to talk trash about the members, then you have achieved you goal and can feel quite self-satisfied.
Cheers!
Cletus Ordo, when you speak of South Georgia being so "rigid", I heard there was a vote in Pierce County in the May 22 GOP primary about whether to "break away" from north Georgia (divide the state into two). I think it got nearly 30 percent support. North Georgia of course is dominated by increasingly liberal metro Atlanta (which voted for Obama twice and Clinton in 2016). Shall we divide Georgia like the two dioceses of the state are?!?
My parish in 30327 has begun singing the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin at our 10 am Mass--we're slowly getting hang of it but haven't heard any complaints (if you don't want the Latin, you can always go to our 830, 1130 or 530 Masses which are all-English).
Mr. Carter:
The problem is, the so-called "Ordinary Form" is not a product of any sort of organic development. It is not a.product of growth and progress. It is an imposed rite concocted by a committee of both questionable members and one VERY questionable leader. Just my opinion, but I think the Church is in a slower version of what Coca Cola took care of in a few months. Instead of admitting that "New Coke" was a mistake, they offered "Coca Cola Classic" as an option and slowly let the New Coke erode off the shelves and stopped replacing it. Pope Benedict knew and knows that if he admits that the OF was a mistake, he would infuriate huge sectors of the Church. So he made his appeasement statement and allows the EF to coexist until some time--probably not in my lifetime--the OF is pulled from the shelves altogether because those attached to it will be so few in number. I know many readers scoff at this notion, but a LOT can change in just a few years. And the numbers prove it: The ONLY sector of the Catholic Church that is showing consistent, sustainable growth is the Traditionalist sector. Kumbayachurch's legacy is a joke. It cannot and will not sustain itself.
Anonymous,
OK, let's see what kind of evidence we can glean here:
Question one: Are there any priest/commenters here who are members of the AUSCP?
Question two: If you are an AUSCP member, do you celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (or are you willing to do so)?
Maybe Anonymous would like to be the first to answer?
The rigidity isn't supposed to be a reason to break away. The rigidity reflects the closed-mindedness and hard-heartedness of so many "Vatican II New Church" Catholics WHO WON'T EVEN TRY THE TRADITIONAL RITE. They have listened to so many years of bashing by bitter older people, revolutionaries and grayhaired clerics who despise the old rite, that they've completely bought into it. It doesn't have to divide parishes. It should be a great unifier. You seem to draw the conclusion that introducing the EF would cause raging divisions in a parish. Some proof would be nice.
As a follow-up, I also visited the AUSCP site (something I've done before, out of curiosity) and noticed that it has a "Search Our Website" feature. I typed in "Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite" and "Latin Mass" and the response, on both counts, was "no results found."
Joseph Johnson, that's because they are fake priests like Anonymous
TJM,
They are validly ordained priests (and deserve our prayers), they just seem to care more about "the role of women in the Church" and global warming than they do good liturgy! Once again, attitudes . . .
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