Wednesday, February 6, 2019

THE POPE WHO SPEAKS TOO MUCH AND IN A GOSSIPY WAY AND WITHOUT PRECISION


The next pope will have much to do to restore sobriety, clarity and eloquence in papal speak!

Vatican clarifies pope on issue of ‘sexual slavery’ of nuns

Vatican clarifies pope on issue of ‘sexual slavery’ of nuns
Pope Francis delivers his message in the Paul VI hall on the occasion of his weekly general audience at the Vatican, Wednesday, Feb. 6, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia.)
ROME - The Vatican on Wednesday clarified comments by Pope Francis about a case of what he called “sexual slavery” within a French congregation of nuns, saying he was referring to an abuse of power that was reflected in instances of sexual abuse.
Francis cited the case when responding to a question about the sexual abuse of nuns by clergy during a press conference Tuesday returning home from the United Arab Emirates. It was the pope’s first-ever public acknowledgment of the problem of priests and bishops sexually abusing nuns. He stressed that the Vatican had been confronting the issue for some time and vowed to do more.
Vatican spokesman Alessandro Gisotti said Wednesday Francis “spoke of ‘sexual slavery’ to mean ‘manipulation’ or a type of abuse of power that is reflected in a sexual abuse.”
The Community of St. Jean admitted in 2013 that its late founder had behaved “in ways that went against chastity” with women in the order, according to the French Catholic newspaper La Croix. The Vatican under Pope Benedict XVI ultimately dissolved an offshoot of the congregation.
The issue has come to the fore amid the Catholic Church’s overall reckoning with the sexual abuse of minors and the #MeToo-inspired acknowledgement that adults can be victims of abuse whenever there is an imbalance of power in a relationship. In the past year, The Associated Press and other media have reported on cases of abused nuns in India , Africa, Europe and South America - evidence that the problem is by no means limited to a certain geographic area.
In November, the organization representing all the world’s female Catholic religious orders, the International Union of Superiors General, publicly denounced the “culture of silence and secrecy” that prevented nuns from speaking out and urged sisters to report abuse to their superiors and police. And just last week, the women’s magazine of the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano identified the clerical culture of the all-powerful clergy as the culprit.
The magazine, “Women Church World,” noted that the scandal involves a corollary: n[uns being forced to abort the priests’ children or bear children that the priests refuse to recognize.
Francis’s acknowledgement of the problem comes as he prepares to decide the fate of the disgraced American ex-cardinal, Theodore McCarrick, who is accused of abusing minors as well as adult seminarians.

23 comments:

TJM said...

At times like these, precision would be helpful.

Dan said...

Good for you Francis! Don't bother clarifying the matters concerning the eternal salvation of souls, but if you can fit in something about "clericalism" clarify away!!!

Mark Thomas said...

Father McDonald said..."The next pope will have much to do to restore sobriety, clarity and eloquence in papal speak!"

Father, I don't anticipate any such thing.

We had the same thing...clarifications, uproars, as a result of supposed "unwise" declarations issued by Pope Benedict XVI.

We had the uproar throughout Islam via Pope Benedict XVI's Regensburg lecture.

Vatican Says Pope Benedict Regrets Offending Muslims

By IAN FISHER, SEPT. 17, 2006

Associated Press

ROME, Sept. 16 — A top Vatican official said Saturday that Pope Benedict XVI “deeply regretted” that a speech he made this week “sounded offensive to the sensibility of Muslim believers.”
=============================================================================

Vatican Clarifies Pope Benedict's Remarks on Condoms

ROME — The Vatican on Tuesday issued its most authoritative clarification on Pope Benedict XVI’s recent remarks that condoms could sometimes be used for disease prevention, saying that the pope in no way justified their use to prevent pregnancy.

The statement appeared to be a sign of the lingering confusion — and, perhaps, Vatican infighting — over the remarks.
==========================================================================================

-- Rome clarified Pope Benedict's remarks in regard to the Infancy Narratives.

-- There was confusion as to why Pope Benedict XVI outraged "traditional" Catholic when he concocted a new Good Friday prayer for Jews. He refused to have revealed at that time his reason for having toss aside the ancient prayer in question.

-- Pope Benedict XVI had to clarify via a letter his having lifted excommunications attached to the bishops of the SSPX.
================================================================================

Supposed confusion was present during Pope Benedict XVI's Pontificate.

He has been accused of having unleashed massive confusion via his resignation...and subsequent actions that have fueled certain folks to have claimed that he has viewed himself as Pope.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

MT,

When are you EVER going to respond to PF doing NOTHING about the cocaine fueled gay sex orgy at the Vatican. Is that too much to ask? Is PF above God's law?

rcg said...

Mark Thomas. You probalby recall the problem of the island of liars and truth tellers. They appeared identical in every way and you were given the challenge of contriving a question that when they answered in kind would reveal which tribe they belonged to. In This case the task is more simple, you merely have to see who hates what they say to tell what sort of person he is.

John Nolan said...

TJM

I can't comment on reports of orgies in the Vatican, any more than I imagine MT can. If you can provide times, dates, the names of those involved, and credible witnesses, then please feel free to enlighten us. Most of the lurid tales about Alexander VI's court were manufactured by his enemies, of whom he had plenty.

My issue with MT is that his arguments are spurious in that he makes use of false equivalence. In more than thirty years as CDF Prefect and later Pontiff, Benedict XVI was noted for clarity in speech and writing. The fact that some people didn't like what he said or wrote is beside the point.

His abdication was in hindsight regrettable, since he probably guessed who his successor would be, but his stated reasons were clear enough.

Interestingly, what the secular press seized on as 'gaffes' (regarding condoms, homosexuals, Islam and so on) were nothing of the sort. They were unambiguous, clearly expressed, and never retracted.

Few traditional Catholics objected to the revised Good Friday prayer; many thought it should also be used in the OF.

Explaining what the Pope meant to a secular media determined to seize the wrong end of the stick is not the same as clarifying or rewriting statements which are unclear or ambiguous in themselves.

TJM said...

John Nolan,

Actually that gay sex orgy in the Vatican has been reported on many times:


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaking-pope-knowingly-gave-vatican-apartment-to-gay-priest-later-caught-i

I am surprised you have not seen the reports. I am still breathlessly awaiting PF's "tough" response.

Cheers

Mark Thomas said...

What I've found interesting about Pope Benedict XVI's "gaffes," as compared to Pope Francis' "gaffes," is that Pope Benedict XVI unleashed supposed confusion and controversy via books or lectures.

That is, Pope Benedict XVI had enjoyed plenty of time to have considered his remarks.

Example: Vatican spokesmen rushed to cover for Pope Benedict XVI when he enraged the Moslem world via the Pope's Regensburg lecture.

Example: Vatican spokesmen rushed to cover for Pope Benedict XVI when, via the book Light of the World: The Pope, the Church, and the Sign of the Times, Pope Benedict XVI issued his controversial comment about condoms.

Example: The Infancy Narrative book by Pope Benedict XVI ignited controversy.
=====================================================================================

Pope Benedict XVI enraged the Moslem world via his "gaffe" in question. But among the gaffes associated with Popes Benedict XVI and Francis, without question, the one that ignited the greatest controversy within the Church was Pope Benedict XVI's declaration about condoms/prostitutes.

Other than that, controversies ignited by Popes Benedict XVI and Francis lasted about...oh, 10 seconds.

Nobody cared.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

John Nolan said..."In more than thirty years as CDF Prefect and later Pontiff, Benedict XVI was noted for clarity in speech and writing."

You are unfamiliar obviously with the countless times that "traditional" Catholics insisted that he was an "unrepentant," suit-and-tie- wearing, Vatican II "modernist," who engaged in muddled thinking and double-talk.

The SSPX, for example, published many articles that criticized the supposed muddled manner in which he expressed The New Theology.

Mister Nolan, do you require examples of the above?

https://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/1993_August/They_Think_Theyve_Won.htm

http://archives.sspx.org/superior_generals_news/problems_causes_remedies.htm

Excerpt: "A few years ago Cardinal Ratzinger issued a text condemning the theology of liberation. The first text was a clear condemnation. The second text was announced and it was said that the second and the first had to be read in the light of the first and second respectively. But, in the second version you find phrases which justify the theology of liberation. So, liberation theology is simultaneously condemned and justified!"

Via the following, the SSPX denounced Cardinal Ratzinger's supposed "confused" theology:

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/judaism-church-after-vatican-ii-1342

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

MT,

When are you EVER going to tell us what PF has done about the cocaine sex fueled gay orgies in the Vatican. You obviously have time to dig up a lot of rubbish, so why aren't you feverishly working on my topic? Inquiring minds want to know!

Mark Thomas said...

John Nolan said..."Few traditional Catholics objected to the revised Good Friday prayer; many thought it should also be used in the OF."

Mr. Nolan, your claim that "few" trads objected to the new prayer in question is preposterous.

A great many "traditionalists" went ballistic when Pope Benedict XVI had tossed aside the ancient prayer in question — a prayer that he insisted was harsh and had served to "wound" Jews.

I agree that many trads said that the new prayer was superior to, and should have replaced, the OF's prayer in question. However, the notion that "few" trads objected to the new prayer is absurd. One after another accused him of having bowed to Abe Foxman.

Again, your claim does not reflect reality. One "trad" group/publication after another rejected the prayer in question.

Pope’s Rewrite of Latin Prayer Draws Criticism From 2 Sides

By IAN FISHERFEB. 6, 2008

ROME — Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday issued a replacement for a contentious Good Friday prayer in Latin, removing language that many Jewish groups found offensive but still calling for the Jews’ conversion.

However, representatives of Jewish groups as well as traditionalist Catholics quickly condemned the new prayer, though for different reasons."

===========================================================================

The SSPX denounced the new prayer.

https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/good-friday-prayer-jews-modified-1962-roman-missal-21713

"Because of pressure put upon him by people outside the Catholic Church, the pope thought he had to change the venerable Prayer for the Jews which is an integral part of the Good Friday liturgy. This prayer is among the most ancient; it dates back approximately to the 3rd century, and thus has been recited throughout the history of the Church as a full expression of the Catholic faith.

"Though the necessity of accepting the Messiah to be saved has been kept, we can only deeply deplore the change."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

MT,

Still no ammo to refute me with? I am disappointed

Adam Michael said...

"What I've found interesting about Pope Benedict XVI's 'gaffes,' as compared to Pope Francis' 'gaffes,' is that Pope Benedict XVI unleashed supposed confusion and controversy via books or lectures."

What I have found interesting about the confusion surrounding words/actions of Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis is that there used to be clarifications when people were misinterpreting the pope's words/actions in a heretical manner (e.g. Pope Benedict and condoms), but nobody clarifies anything Pope Francis says or does, even when it is being interpreted in a heretical manner (Pope Francis and hell, Pope Francis and Immaculate Conception, Pope Francis and God's design for diversity of religions). It looks like nobody cares one way or the other. Why the change?

TJM said...

John Nolan,

I saw this comment on another blog and thought it would bring you and Gene a smile:

"I’d like to see the pope in a Hawaiian shirt and flip flops, happily retired to the south Pacific without internet access."

Just a happy thought!

Dan said...

I find it difficult to believe that ANYONE, including our own Mark Thomas, would try to argue that Francis and the constant confusion and upset over his spoken and written words, was like any other pope in history.

Mark try comparing documents released by the Vatican between Benedict and Francis. No comparison. Go back as far as you wish, then try to argue that someone under Francis, or Francis himself, isn't purposefully making that "mess" that Francis talks about.

Mark Thomas said...

Dan, what teaching(s) about which are you confused?

My bishop defends and promotes the Faith. There is zero confusion within my diocese as to Holy Mother Church's teachings.

I am unfamiliar with any diocese or Eparchy where confusion reigns in regard to the Faith.

At each parish near me, the Faith is taught without one shred of confusion.

CCD classes...catechumens...the Faith is taught without confusion.

Just listen to Pope Francis. In turn, you will hear Jesus Christ.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Pope Francis "openly and vigorously defends Church teaching on contraception, abortion, homosexuality, reproductive technologies, the education of children and much more."

— Cardinal Sarah

John Nolan said...

Pope Benedict's Regensburg lecture on faith and reason was arguably the most significant statement of his pontificate. That some mischief-makers took one passage out of context and manipulated it for sinister ends does not imply that it was in any way ambiguous or unclear.

The world's bishops were quick to defend the pope, with one exception, who quickly condemned it without having read it: the Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Jorge Mario Bergoglio.

Dan said...

Mark READ the documents and compare the clarity.

Dan said...

I suppose I look at evidence, but to me the fact that some Cardinals felt it neccessary to produce the infamous "Dubia" is evidence that at least some portion of the Church would like some clarity.

And the fact that Francis has refused to answer the infamous "Dubia" proves to me that he is unconcerned that he may be unclear.

Mark Thomas said...

Adam Michael said..."What I have found interesting about the confusion surrounding words/actions of Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis is that there used to be clarifications when people were misinterpreting the pope's words/actions in a heretical manner (e.g. Pope Benedict and condoms), but nobody clarifies anything Pope Francis says or does, even when it is being interpreted in a heretical manner (Pope Francis and hell, Pope Francis and Immaculate Conception, Pope Francis and God's design for diversity of religions). It looks like nobody cares one way or the other. Why the change?"

You have forgotten the following?

Vatican says interview in which Pope doubts Hell not a ‘faithful transcript’

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/03/29/vatican-says-interview-in-which-pope-doubts-hell-not-a-faithful-transcript/

=========================================================================================

As to your additional points...

Who on earth misrepresented Pope Francis' beautiful reiterations of Church teachings related to the Immaculate Conception?

Pope Francis, December 8, 2013 A.D: "In view of this motherhood, Mary was preserved from original sin, from that fracture in communion with God, with others and with creation, which deeply wounds every human being.

"But this fracture was healed in advance in the Mother of the One who came to free us from the slavery of sin. The Immaculata was written in God’s design; she is the fruit of God’s love that saves the world."

December 8, 2013: "You are all-beautiful, O Mary! In you there is no sin."

December 8, 2014: "The Angel Gabriel calls Mary “full of grace” (Lk 1:28): in her there is no room for sin, because God chose her from eternity to be the mother of Jesus and preserved her from original sin."

"Today the People of God celebrate, they venerate you, the Immaculate, ever preserved from the stain of sin. Though we are sinners, we are still your children, the children of the Immaculate, called to that holiness that has shown resplendent in you by the grace of God from the beginning."

December 8, 2016: "He [Jesus] was made equal to us in every way, except one thing, that ‘no’. Except sin. For this reason, he chose Mary, the only creature without sin, immaculate. In the Gospel, with one word only, she is called “full of grace” (Lk 1:28), that is, filled with grace. It means that, in her, full of grace from the start, there is no space for sin. And when we turn to her, we too recognize this beauty: we invoke her, “full of grace”, without a shadow of evil."

December 8, 2017: "Even the greatest saints were sinners and everything in reality, even the most beautiful things, are corroded by evil: everything, except Mary. She is the one “evergreen oasis” of humanity, the only one uncontaminated, created immaculate so as to fully welcome, with her ‘yes’, God who came into the world and thus to begin a new history."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Mark Thomas said...

Dan, we just have to disagree in peace.

Anyway, one Cardinal and bishop after another has praised Pope Francis as a wonderful orthodox defender and promoter of the Faith.

Again, in my diocese, there isn't a shred of confusion in regard to the Faith. Our parishes, our diocese, in communion with Pope Francis, proclaim the True Religion...not one bit of confusion.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

MT,


"Again, in my diocese, there isn't a shred of confusion in regard to the Faith. Our parishes, our diocese, in communion with Pope Francis, proclaim the True Religion...not one bit of confusion."

LOL. If you believe that I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you.

Adam Michael said...

Mark Thomas,

Thanks for the documentation.