It is safe to say that Pope Francis has begun a tradition of reversing three of his previous predecessors’ papal reforms. Clearly blessing mortal sins of those who live together outside of marriage undermines and reverses many, many aspects of Saint Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae. Clearly many of Pope Francis’ teachings reverses so much of Veritas Splendor of St. Pope John Paul II. And certainly TC reverses Pope Benedict’s XVI reform of the reform and reform of authoritarianism in forbidding liturgies of the Church with well over a 1,000 year tradition.
Pope Francis has gone back on papal reforms of three popes, two of whom are canonized saints. For Cardinal Parolin to say that Pope Francis’ reforms are set in concrete and future pope can’t go back and reverse these reforms is simply a joke and it is to laugh!
The following is copied from Catholic World Report with a link to the Vatican News story:
Cardinal Parolin: no going back on Pope’s reforms
April 25, 2024
» Continue to this story on Vatican News
CWN Editor's Note: Questioned whether the reforms begun by Pope Francis will endure, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, the Vatican Secretary of State, said: “Precisely because it is the action of the Spirit, there can be no turning around.”
Cardinal Parolin offered that thought at a press conference introducing a new book about Vatican controversies by the journalist Ignazio Ingrao. In that book the author writes of “irreversible processes” of reform begun in this pontificate.
Reform in the Church is always about return to the source: to the original unchangeable teachings of Jesus Christ. Reform is never about some “irreversible processes” of any particular pontificate, especially one that is brimming with scandals and controversies.
- Posted by: Randal Mandock - Apr. 25, 2024 5:10 PM ET USA
Will it never end? We see it again in the cited article: "Magisterium of Pope Francis". Cults of personality, such as this one, tend to annoy after constant repetition. The article mentions "irreversible processes" and in the next paragraph, "Ecclesia semper reformanda". Do these constitute an oxymoron? The article also refers to "the Spirit". The frequent references to "the Spirit" in recent Vatican statements prompt one to ask which spirit? The Holy Spirit? "Spirit of Vatican II"? Another?
31 comments:
It beggars belief--some people have just turned off their brains. How can something that has been reversed be irreversible?
Interesting to note, too, is that the Vatican website is scrubbing away English translations of Pope St. John Paul II's speeches and writings. Holy, holy, holy! Those who control the past control the future, and if they got their way, the Church would have no history or tradition before the Current Year. Maybe that's why those who worship in the way Catholics did before 1965 are being stamped out.
Nick
And Parolin is clearly the man to trust on such things, his office one of.such sparkling repute. Of course, if the next pope disavows most of the Francis papacy, he will then be saying he had urged that all along.
Nick, one of the very first bad signs of this papacy was their butchering of the Vatican website which WAS an excellent resource to find most anything the Church had ever said on anything. Suddenly it was nothing but a marketing website for Francis-this and Francis-that, impossible or buried access to anything else including CDF documents, writings of other popes unless Latin/Italian, and long term foot dragging on publishing new documents in English.
It was clearly a shift from a very good library to a propaganda/marketing website, as if some two-bit dictator and revolutionary guard had taken over the airwaves, and this was before he did anything with which I could say was anything but maybe ambiguous.
It was a harbinger of things to come and a sneak peak at the papacy.
This is laughable BUT Parolin shows his true colors as Francis 2.0. We should be very wary of him as Papabile. He may be a serious contender and if elected, will institutionalize the "recovation" of Holy Mother Church. Pray, pray, pray!
Am I being stupid or does this mean, by implication, that the reforms of Paul VI, John-Paul II and Benedict XVI were not of ‘the Spirit’ ? And just who is the arbiter of that Spirit ? Will Montanus assist ?
And Father Evans is the winner of today's Kewpie Doll. Excellent throw. Montanus may not have erred past straying into Holiness Church practices, but his followers certainly developed a bad case "We have the Secret Sam Spirit and you don't, nyah nyah nyah", of which this papacy is full.
However, if you were to ask them how to definitely know God, they would hem and haw, while last I checked, the Holy Spirit is God, and it is awful awful hard to know the will of anyone when you don't know them, which clearly these cats do not.
Well put, Father Evans.
Nick
Throughout the centuries, the Church's understanding of this, or that, has deepened and developed. One need only examine the cases of Pope Francis' Vatican II Era predecessors. Pope Benedict XVI, for example, had reversed this or that. Or, he had accepted "reversals" that his predecessors had developed.
I will leave it to others to fret in regard to Popes who have "reversed course."
I am at peace with Pope Francis. I will, should I live long enough, be at peace with his successor as Jesus Christ has assured His Church that He speaks through the Pope.
I am at peace as per Pope Benedict XVI, I need simply grant my "unconditional reverence and obedience." In turn, I will be at ease as it's a given that the Pope will never teach error.
Pope Venerable Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, #50:
"Christ enlightens His whole ChurcH...it is He who enriches pastors and teachers and above all His Vicar on earth with the supernatural gifts of knowledge, understanding and wisdom, so that they may loyally preserve the treasury of faith..."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark, there you go cherry picking again....you and Francis should show such reverence to popes who formally pronounced anathema on anyone who would presume to change the Tridentine Mass.
I love how your ilk uses "deeper understanding", hidden from the rest of us, on not judging sins or even bad decisions, and wrap yourselves in "the Spirit" which neither you nor Francis could find with two hands and a flashlight.
Mark, put more concretely, as for error/contradiction, when a pope declares that for anyone at any time who teaches otherwise to be anathema, that is about as concrete as you can get, and there is no deeper understanding possible, only sophistry.
Leaving the documents of Vatican II out of it, the change in the Mass flatly contradicted a firm papal teaching and making it all up for grabs, including which pope to which one need listen. There now is no way ANYone can follow ALL the papal teachings and not be in error, making a mockery of anyone who claims to do so, such as you.
Benedict put aside nothing regarding faith and morals as taught by any prior pope, by the way. The only pope in history who has toyed with that is Francis, and there is no deeper understanding hidden from everyone else past him and his fan club which allows him to do so, and him still be considered pope.
While you would go along with anything a pope ever said, even as he tries to overturn everything said by every pope in history, even were he proved THE anti-pope, since he is the pope, serene in your, "I was just following orders," and thinking that will be plenty at the judgement. Meanwhile, scripture is quite clear that those who do so and follow false teaching number among the damned.
There is proper obedience, and then there is turning off the brain and refusing to think or see, as those who follow darkness always do.
Bob, I will translate "cherry-picking." I quoted Holy Mother Church's clear, unassailable teaching from, which you are determined to dissent as you despise His Holiness, Pope Francis.
In line with each dissenter throughout Church history, you must find away to justify said dissent.
Therefore, unable to refute Church teaching, you must pretend in absurd fashion that I had engaged in "cherry-picking."
The Church teaches that the Pope has been blessed with "the supernatural gifts of knowledge, understanding and wisdom." Jesus Christ speaks via the Pope.
Thanks to the promise of Jesus Christ, Pope Francis has blessed with never-failing faith. Our embrace of Pope Francis' teaching authority guarantees that we will, in turn, embrace God's Truth.
Bob, you despise the fact that God has authorized Pope Francis to teach, govern, and sanctify you.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Bos says, "Leaving the documents of Vatican II out of it, the change in the Mass flatly contradicted a firm papal teaching and making it all up for grabs, including which pope to which one need listen."
There is no "firm papal teaching" that forbids any and all changes in the liturgy. Changes have been made throughout the centuries by various popes. Liturgical calendars have been re-arranged, parts of the mass have been added and deleted, styles of music have varied from age to age and place to place.
Some people wrongly think that "Quo Primum - Promulgating the Tridentine Liturgy" of Pope Pius V in 1570 forbids all changes when it says in part, "We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force..."
It does not. Liturgical regulations are, by their very nature, not permanent or unalterable. Fr. John Zuhlsdorf notes on his blog, "BTW… Pius V did not intend with Quo primum to make the 1570 Missale Romanum the Latin Church’s missal “forever”. Often claimed. Wrong."
Jeff Mirius writes, "Liturgical directives are disciplinary and, therefore, subject to change. No theologian in the entire history of the Church, I think, has ever maintained the contrary position, and certainly the Church has never taught the contrary position which is, in any case, absurd on its face."
Bob, you would do well to read Pope Benedict XVI's proclamations that as time has passed, and enlightened by the Holy Ghost, Holy Mother Church's understanding and knowledge has deepened.
In line with Pope Saint John XXIII, Pope Benedict XVI reiterated that the Deposit of Faith is one thing, but the manner in which the Faith is presented is another thing.
-- The manner in which Holy Mother Church today administers the Holy Sacrament of Penance differs tremendously as compared to that of the Early Church.
-- Pope Venerable Pius XII modified in dramatic fashion the Church's ancient, traditional Eucharist Fast. He declared that the dramatic change in question was required as "the times in which we live and their peculiar conditions have brought many modifications in the habits of society and in the activities of common life."
"Out of these there may arise serious difficulties which could keep men from partaking of the divine mysteries if the law of the Eucharistic fast is to be observed in the way in which it had to be observed up to the present time."
=========
The Church throughout the centuries has modified in dramatic fashion the manner in which She has presented the Faith.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Bob, it is you and your ilk — dissenters — who have pretended for centuries that you have deep, specialized knowledge that has endowed you with insights that our Popes have not possessed.
A Catholic who has rejected the Papal Magisterium has pretended that his/her judgement is superior to that of the Roman Pontiff.
You justify your dissent by pretending that you have not "turned off your brain." That is, unlike the supposed poor, misguided Pope, you pretend that you have been blessed with knowledge that has allowed you to arrive at the truth.
Your claim that you have not "turned off your brain" also insults the Holy People of God who, in line with Church teaching, have submitted in humble fashion to the Pope's awesome authority to teach, govern, and sanctify his spiritual children.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark, the difference between thee and me is I am honest, while you pull such stunts as to infer Benedict changed meaningful Church teachings in the faith and morals, when there was never one more careful as Pope to NOT do so.
I am also honest enough to cheerfully say, "yes, I cherry pick, choosing only those doctrines in line with all of Church history, rather than those conflicting over the last 10yrs."
While you cherry pick quotes out of context in false efforts to support the last 10yrs, deny cherry picking at all, and claim to be in continuity with all which came before including this papacy, which flatly is impossible.
If you are such a firm fan of this papacy, let the rubber meet the road, stop filling this site comment section with disjointed quotes ignored by everyone else, and go kick on contemplative religious order doors and tell them your pope commands they go out and get a REAL job like social workers have.
But, you won't do that. You'll instead stay on the computer to try to reach readers of the site with your "Francis is just like every other pope, but different" message...insulting the intelligence of readers and getting nowhere.
My advice is to put on the door boots where you might be more effective.
Oh, and Mark, lest you think I am picking on Francis, again, I am honest in my cherry picking, and very much disagree with popes who thought Vatican galley slaves were just fine, disagree with libertines who held that office, disagree with some of the wars in which they engaged....
But not ONE of them ever dared tinker with the faith and moral teachings of the Church. In all of history, we have only one so bold, and as previous popes have taught, that makes him a false teacher. I cherry pick with the majority.
Bob, that which you have claimed in regard to Pope Francis has long been claimed in regard to such Popes as Benedict XVI, Saint John Paul II, as well as Saint Paul VI.
Archbishop Lefebvre, for example, insisted that then-Cardinal Ratzinger was an apostate who had abandoned the Faith for the so-called "Religion of Vatican II."
Archbishop Lefebvre declared as well:
"The rupture does not come from us, but from Paul VI and John Paul II who break with their predecessors. This denial of the whole past of the Church by these two Popes and the bishops who imitate them is an inconceivable impiety and an intolerable humiliation for those who remain Catholic in fidelity to twenty centuries of the same Faith."
"Thus we consider as null everything inspired by this spirit of denial of the past: all the post-conciliar reforms, and all the acts of Rome accomplished in this impiety."
=====
Bob, your extremism is old hat. You have regurgitated attacks against Pope Francis that have long been employed against Popes Benedict XVI, Saint John Paul II, and Saint Paul VI.
The attacks in question are rooted in arrogance. You and your fellow dissenters have fancied yourselves as having possessed knowledge and wisdom that eluded the Pope(s) against whom you've rebelled.
You pretend also that unlike the Holy People of God who obey Popes, you know best as you have not "turned off your brain."
Bob, you fancy yourself as possessing knowledge and wisdom that supposed foolish, brainless, little people who submit to the Pope's God-given teaching authority lack.
Bob, I hope that you will recognize that Satan has deceived you. Satan has lured you into his evil war against His Holiness, Pope Francis.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"But not ONE of them ever dared tinker with the faith and moral teachings of the Church."
Other popes have been (and are) accused of "tinkering" with faith and morals. But those accusations, based on ignorance, poor understanding, or outright malevolence, were unfounded.
There are MANY on the traditionalist side who accuse every pope since Paul VI of being heretics in the matters of 1) ecumenism, [Unitatis Redentiogratio] 2) inter-faith relations, [Nostrae Aetate] 3) religious freedom [Dignitatis Humanae.]
That someone accuses a pope of being a heretic is not, by a long shot, proof that he is one.
Regurgitated attacks same as used against B-16 and JP-2?
Oh, really?
They were accused of trying to change ancient and constant Christian doctrines, redefine sin and salvation, and grant sacraments to blatant and unrepentant sinners?
Dang, I must have missed that...maybe I was taking a nap. Thanks for clueing me in.
Bob, I want you to know that I do not fancy myself as superior to you. I simply feel bad for you, my brother in Jesus Christ. Bob, I am saddened that you have embraced that which Holy Mother Church has long denounced — rebellion against the Pope.
Bob, God has called you — God has called each of us — to submit humbly to Pope Francis' awesome God-given authority to teach, govern, and sanctify you.
Pope Francis has been blessed with never-failing faith. Pope Francis preserved immaculate the Catholic Religion. Pope Francis' Magisterium is free from error.
Bob, I pray that you obtain the monumental peace, as well certainty in regard to the Faith, that flows from granting, in line with Pope Benedict XVI, one's "unconditional reverence and obedience" to Pope Francis.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark, don't you fret yourself for my salvation, as I have it from Francis and Heal Me With Your Mouth, Baby, that my salvation is virtually assured no matter what I do, and a good chance Hell is empty, if it even exists...
Heck, now that I think about it, why be a Catholic and donate if it not needed? Why even bother being a Christian!? Those pagans really know how to party! BRING IT ON!
Bob, I do not recall my having said anything in regard to your salvation.
Please correct me if I am wrong about that.
====
Bob, speaking of salvation: You stated:
"While you would go along with anything a pope ever said, even as he tries to overturn everything said by every pope in history, even were he proved THE anti-pope, since he is the pope, serene in your, "I was just following orders," and thinking that will be plenty at the judgement.
"Meanwhile, scripture is quite clear that those who do so and follow false teaching number among the damned. There is proper obedience, and then there is turning off the brain and refusing to think or see, as those who follow darkness always do."
Each Catholic diocese and eparchy upon earth proclaims that Pope Francis is our orthodox Pope. Therefore, millions of Catholics throughout the world who embrace that are at risk of damnation.
Correct, Bob?
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I see the two fake Catholics, Fr K "I vote for abortion" and Mark Thomas "I side with an evil, corrupt Pope" are still posting.
Father McDonald, how is this working out for you?
Wait... Am I still posting? How is this possible, I mean, since all that stuff happened?
Is anyone really out there? Or am I imagining this? What can explain this?
Is a puzzlement! Shall we dance???
TJM, I know of no good Catholic who can commit mortal sins against charity towards fellow Catholics, to include the pope, and proclaim their Catholicity in comparison to others. The hypocrisy is palpable. As a lawyer, you should know better than that, but of course, you know what Jesus has to say about “doctors of the law” who see and complain about the speck in their brother’s eye but miss the plank in their own.
And as I understand it, you support President Trump which then makes you complicit in the his pathological lying, sexual abuse and now his pro-abortion stand. How’s that working for you?
Father K Orwell,
This is what you are voting for?
Representative Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) said Monday on MSNBC’s “Katy Tur Reports” that if the Democrats win majorities in Congress and the White House, they will ditch the filibuster to legalize abortion nationwide.
Fr. McDonald,
I don't know where you get your "news" but the greater pathological liar of long standing is Joe Biden who makes up things non stop. He was really unhinged on Howard Stern.
Trump is merely stating what the law is. Abortion is a State issue, not a federal one. There will be baby killer states and non baby killer states.
Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Again, TJM's comments have nothing to do with the Faith, Catholic or otherwise. They are 100% political, based on his adherence to the Trump Cult agenda.
Fr K Orwell,
And your comments are dedicated to supporting the Democrat Cult of baby killing, child mutilation and illegal aliens. You are a petty girlieman whom I suspect is a fake catholic and Soros paid operative. Father McDonald has chosen badly in allowing you to post your leftwing lies. Some of our best commentators like John Nolan, Bea, ByzRus, Jerome Merwick, etal no longer post because they are disgusted by you.
TJM - You can continue you lies about me and others as long as you like, but they remain lies.
And, you know, that "Soros paid operative" nonsense really does reveal you for the fool you are.
TJM, and when people are "disgusted" by someone who disagrees with them, by someone who does not share their personal liturgical preferences, or by someone who does not share their understanding and interpretation of history, the problem is theirs.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've declined to post anything here any more for a lot of reasons. Maybe the most important reason is because this was becoming an occasion of sin for me. Disagreement and spirited debate are great. But anyone with a shred of honesty would have to admit that we have long ago stopped doing anything that remotely resembles that here. The atmosphere has turned toxic. The smug barbs are ceaseless. Regardless of the issue discussed, the discussion isn't a discussion when both sides are simply trying to "define" the other side rather than discuss the issue and I am as guilty of that as anyone else here. If anything disgusted me, it was the repeated, slobbering blather of one particularly tone-deaf person who posts here about 75% more than anyone else, just repeating the same old ideas.
Father McDonald is just fine. His project here has, however gone awry. I am not needed here anyway and I have a life. I suggest we all get on with ours and focus on trying to attain virtues and graces.
Post a Comment