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Tuesday, July 28, 2020

SANDRO MAGISTER, JUST IN CASE YOU CAN’T GET ENOUGH OF VATICAN II


Sandro Magister publishes two articles, a google translation:

The dispute over Vatican II is increasingly heated.  The letters of a theologian and an archbishop
 COUNCIL


 I receive and publish the following two letters.  Both on the issue - now more disputed than ever - of the Second Vatican Council.

 Francesco Arzillo, author of the first, is a magistrate from Rome who is an appreciated writer of essays on philosophy and theology.

 Archbishop Agostino Marchetto, author of the second, in diplomacy until 2010, is one of the most systematic scholars of Vatican Council II, as well as a fierce critic of the reconstruction of that event produced by the "Bologna school" founded by Giuseppe Dossetti and then directed  by Giuseppe Alberigo and Alberto Melloni.

 In a letter of 7 October 2013 addressed to him and then made public, Pope Francis himself wrote to him:

 "Once I said to you, dear Archbishop Marchetto, and today I want to repeat it, that I consider you the best hermeneut of Vatican Council II".

 *

 1. THE LETTER OF THE THEOLOGIAN FRANCESCO ARZILLO

 Dear Magister,

 the media coverage of the traditionalist criticisms of Vatican II, with annexes and connections, is quite worrying and in some ways surprising.

 First of all, there is an emphasis on the Council as an "event": with a singular methodological subordination to the well-known concepts of progressive brand (of the "Bologna school" but not only).  The use of historiographic methods and criteria with theological-doctrinal purposes seems to overlook the fact that the Council, as well as the documents of the conciliar and post-conciliar popes, are acts of magisterium to be interpreted according to theological and canonical criteria, without confusion of the  investigation.

 Paradoxically, then, we end up talking too much and almost exclusively about Vatican II, which is a Council already "metabolized" by theologians as well as by the faithful, starting from the next generation: a fairly contradictory position (if we want, even on a logical level) with respect  to the traditional premises of those who profess it.

 We even go so far as to say that hermeneutics, interpretation, should be excluded from the doctrinal field.  But in this way the unacceptable radical hermeneutic philosophies (which reduce the truth - and ultimately the same being - an interpretative event) are confused with the physiological use of the believing intellect in the comparison with the dogmatic texts: use that has always existed and  which must respond to certain canons, of which the ultimate guarantor always remains the ecclesial magisterium.

 It is easier for us today to consider en bloc, for example, the outcome of the Christological councils of the first centuries;  but we cannot ignore the centuries-old interpretative conflicts that took centuries to settle, even after the Council of Chalcedon in 451.

 Of course it is true that dogmatic formulas have an immediate sense, potentially knowable by anyone (it is the basis of the common sense doctrine).  But if further interpretative and doctrinal questions arise in reading them, they must (and have always been) faced with the method proper to Catholic theology.

 The problem therefore is not the fact of interpretation, but the identification of the related criteria.

 Among them, a criterion of diachronic and synchronic totality must certainly be recognized.  In the diachronic profile there is that of continuity over the centuries, which excludes doctrinal contradictions, provided that the contradiction is correctly identified, in relation to the precise scope of a truth and its doctrinal "weight" (the classic "theological note").

 It is evident that on some things it is not possible to settle.  Think of the need, recently defended by me, of the use of the language of "substance" also in Eucharistic matter ("transubstantiation").

 It is not possible to adhere to Karl Rahner's epistemology, to the extent that it potentially excludes representations and interpretations that would not necessarily be part of it from the binding content of the proposition of faith: this is a discourse that ultimately excludes the same identifiability as the referent  of doctrinal discourse, which in some way needs appropriate concepts, such as included in the content of the dogma and not interchangeable "ad libitum".

 But this does not mean that every linguistic change or every accent shift implies a doctrinal contradiction.

 For example, on the traditionalist side the statement of "Gaudium et spes" 22 is often referred to according to which "with the incarnation the Son of God united himself in a certain way with every man" ("cum omni homine quodammodo se univit"  ).  The use of the adverbial phrase "quodammodo" (which, moreover, is typical of the great classical theology, inspired not by the criteria of geometric-mathematical uniqueness, but respectful of the Mystery), however, warns us to draw hasty conclusions.

 In a remarkable article published in the magazine "30 Days" in 2010, the great Jesuit biblical scholar Ignace de la Potterie recalled the previous Thomistic according to which "considering the generality of men, all the time in the world, Christ is the head of all  men, but according to different degrees "(" Summa theologica "III, 8, 3) and explained:

 "But if the words" according to different degrees "and" in a certain way "were not removed from the phrase" Summa theologica "and from the phrase" Gaudium et spes ", all the data of the Catholic faith would not be respected.  And in fact the Council itself, in the dogmatic constitution 'Lumen gentium' (13), faithfully following Tradition, clearly distinguishes between the call of all men to salvation and the actual membership of believers in the communion of Jesus Christ.  According to the method proper to all biblical revelation. "

 This is a simple, great example of hermeneutics of continuity applied to a fundamental point of Catholic doctrine, for which the Christian is not such by nature, but by grace.

 It is only a matter of proceeding on the basis of the "intellectus fidei", putting aside the postulates and apriorisms proper to certain practices that are likely to affect also in the field of politics, ecclesiastical and otherwise.

 Thank you!

 Francesco Arzillo

 *

 2. THE "CIRCULAR" OF ARCHBISHOP AGOSTINO MARCHETTO

 Dear friends and acquaintances,

 happy holidays, if you can enjoy it!  But I think I owe you these lines that touch my "love", the Vatican II Ecumenical Council.  In fact there is a novelty: I want to say that up to the beginning of this summer there were many who testified the fall of interest - let's say so - for the last Great Synod, despite my high lai.

 In fact, I believe that the current "crisis" from which the Catholic Church suffers is also caused by this abandonment, by the question of its correct hermeneutics, the one announced precisely by Pope Benedict XVI, that is, not "of rupture and discontinuity, but of  reform and renewal in the continuity of the one subject Church ".

 Now, since the beginning of the summer, there has been an unfolding of an interest which is also revealed in conflicting relationships.  I will not report here, but instead two remarks, namely that there is no mention of the need for non-rupture (accepted instead from the extreme positions radicalized after Vatican II, with weakening of the intermediate interpretation, that is to say, of the "et ... et"  hermeneutics, that is the so-called "traditional", a quite different category than those who are called "traditionalists") and little emphasis is given to the "continuity of the one subject Church".

 This is especially due to the introduction of "new parameters" or "new ecclesial pragmatics" which does not worry too much about this continuity, thanks also to the exorbitant evaluation of the "signs of the times". In fact they cannot be considered almost as if they were  a new, added Revelation (it was a question addressed in the Council) and here we find the great question of their interpretation, indeed we could say frankly of the critical relationship of the Church with modernity, better, with the contemporary world, with today.

 This is not enough, because the serious initial historical-ideological conditioning of the vision of Vatican II as an "event" has remained (see the French historiography, for the historical vision, especially after "Les Annales"), which leads the  correct interpretation.

 In this regard - as I was able to present better in the first history of the Council's historiography (see my "Vatican II Ecumenical Council. Counterpoint for its history", LEV, Vatican City 2005, p. 407) -  it turned out that the work of the "school of Bologna" was largely published with great historical and ideological gaps, both as regards private council journals, but above all because it was performed without the support of official documents essential for understanding the  Magno Synod, such as the Acts of its governing bodies and the general secretariat.

 Today, then, we can resort to that extraordinary source of knowledge of Pope Paul VI which is the Diary of Cardinal Pericles Felici, a publication edited by me.  From my studies in fact (in addition to the volume cited above, see also the one entitled "The Vatican II Ecumenical Council. For its correct hermeneutics", LEV, Vatican City 2012, p. 380) I draw the belief that even those who recall,  praising them, other hermeneutic tendencies, that of Peter Hünermann, for example, or John W. O'Malley, Gilles Routhier or Christoph Theobald, actually brings polluted water to the same mill.

 Indeed, we went into the factual, claimed reception of the Great Synod, skipping the intermediate step of hermeneutic weighting.  Perhaps thinking, erroneously, that "what made boss has".

 With the best wishes and best regards.

 Agostino Marchetto

27 comments:

Mark Thomas said...

I wish that Pope Emeritus had the strength to take on the recent nonsense that Archbishop Viganò and Bishop Schneider espoused in regard to Vatican II.

I know that he has blessed us for decades with a wealth of material that has revealed the authentic Vatican II.

Unfortunately, right-wingers and left-wingers have ignored Father, Cardinal, Pope, Pope Emeritus Joseph Ratzinger's valuable writings and addresses that have presented unto us the authentic Vatican II.

I realize that today, even if he had the energy to discuss at length Vatican II, that the Church's right-wing, as represented by Archbishop Viganò and Bishop Schneider — that ilk — would dismiss Pope Emeritus' presentation(s) of the Council.

The left-wing would also ignore Pope Emeritus.

But at least among the overwhelming amount of Catholics who don't belong to the Church's extreme wings, those with the desire to encounter the true Council would obtain the truth about the orthodox Second Sacred Vatican Ecumenical Council.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Citizen said...

Key phrase: ...“new ecclesial pragmatics" which does not worry too much about this continuity, thanks also to the exorbitant evaluation of the "signs of the times".

Indeed. As goes sociology, so goes ecclesiology.

Pierre said...

Vatican II, as implemented, was a flop. Look at any metric and the Church is far worse off than it was before. Just like alcoholics, we must admit the problem, before we can solve it.

Anonymous said...

Mark Thomas,

Thanks for your daily dose of Imodium nonsense.

Anonymous said...

I can really recommend reading what Fr Hunwicke wrote on his blog (Mutual Enrichment, liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com) on the 24th July, 2020 in his post: What is to be done about “The Council” ?! AND reading some of the brilliant comments that follow what Fr Hunwicke wrote about Vatican II.

Victor said...

Fr Hunwicke has the best solution for all this V2 crisis:

"Vatican II needs to be helped to fall out of the memory of the Church, just as Vienne has been. It needs to be forgotten ... left to merge into the Church's general background murmur rather than touted around as if it offered anything whatsoever to help us to deal with Now."

http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-is-to-be-done-about-council.html

Even if a valid and magisterial Council, V2 is very poor one like Vienne was and is now forgotten.

Anonymous said...

An opinion: the letters are too long and complicated for the casual reader to understand. Therefore they can be misinterpreted. Both Bert Einstein and Warren Buffet liked to draft their writings so that a sixth grader could understand them.

Mark Thomas said...

Pierre said..."Vatican II, as implemented, was a flop. Look at any metric and the Church is far worse off than it was before."

Not in Africa and Asia. The implementation of Vatican II in Africa and Asia opened the door to boom times in said regions.

Vatican II, as well as the Novus Ordo, are alive and well in those parts of the world.

Pope Benedict XVI, February 14, 2013 A.D. In regard to the fake Council, the "Council of the media", as compared to the authentic Vatican II, he declared:

"We know that this Council of the media was accessible to everyone. Therefore, this was the dominant one, the more effective one, and it created so many disasters, so many problems, so much suffering: seminaries closed, convents closed, banal liturgy … and the real Council had difficulty establishing itself and taking shape; the virtual Council was stronger than the real Council.

"But the real force of the Council was present and, slowly but surely, established itself more and more and became the true force which is also the true reform, the true renewal of the Church.

"It seems to me that, 50 years after the Council, we see that this virtual Council is broken, is lost, and there now appears the true Council with all its spiritual force.

"And it is our task, especially in this Year of Faith, on the basis of this Year of Faith, to work so that the true Council, with its power of the Holy Spirit, be accomplished and the Church be truly renewed. Let us hope that that the Lord will assist us.

"I myself, secluded in prayer, will always be with you and together let us go forward with the Lord in the certainty that the Lord will conquer. Thank you!"

=======================================================================

I stand with Pope (Emeritus) Benedict XVI.

His knowledge, deep insight, and analysis of Vatican II, has, during the past 60 or so years, been unsurpassed among Churchmen.

He knows what he's talking about when it comes to Vatican II.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

Unfortunatley The Imodium doesn't seem to be effective. Perhaps Lomotil will take care of your " mouth issue". Praying that happens quickly before you hijack anymore threads on this blog.

Mark Thomas said...

The following is why I adhere to Rome's teachings, as well as my holy bishop, who is in communion with Pope Francis:

Father Hunwicke has assured us that Vatican II is "irrelevant," and should be tossed aside.

Bishop Schneider said that some "who criticize the Second Vatican Council say that, although there are good aspects to it, it’s somewhat like a cake with a bit of poison in it, and so the whole cake needs to be thrown out.

"I do not think we can follow this method, nor the method of “throwing the baby out with the bath water.” With regard to a legitimate ecumenical Council, even if there were negative points, we have to maintain an overall attitude of respect."

Father Hunwicke and Bishop Schneider differ radically in regard to Vatican II. One says that the Council is irrelevant and to be discarded. The other said that although the Council contains grave errors, that we must respect, as well as maintain, the Council.

Rome and my bishop, teach that Vatican II is orthodox, relevant, and informs every aspect of Church life. I will listen to their voices in regard to Vatican II.

Father Hunwicke, Archbishop Viganò, and Bishop Schneider sow confusion and promote mutiny in regard to the Second Sacred Vatican Ecumenical Council.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

Anonymous said...

I would like to propose that we start a "Go Fund Me" page for Mark Thomas, with the noble purpose of buying this poor rambling soul a one way ticket on a slow boat to China. His extensive knowledge of all things "Asian" should keep him quite comfortable there, and perhaps he can start his own self promoting blog highlighting his great personal Holy Devotion to all things Vatican II. It would serve the 2 fold purpose of giving MT his own space for his devoted ramblings, while relieving the rest of us of the burden of his incessant hijacking of this blog.

Big Nose said...

Vatican II is here to stay so get used to it (or get out)!

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

O my, get out????? This isn't what Pope Francis would recommend at all Nasone. He wishes to accompany those in irregular situations with the Church and/or Vatican II and allow diversity in acceptance of its teachings not only on Vatican II but illicit marriage and the like. All are welome is the mantra you should be chanting not one of exclusion especially of those who don't accept Vatican II anymore or never did.

Anonymous said...

Big Nose Kavanaugh,

You are an exclusionist just like your political party - if you don't drool for more and more abortions you cannot be a party standard bearer.

Anonymous said...

I think Father McDonald is very wise in his assessment. Acceptance of Vatican II and being critical of one who chronically hijaks a blog....no matter what he is rambling about are 2 different issues. This is not the first complaint we have had about it either, and I suspect it won't be the last.

Vatican Zero said...

It's almost hilarious to hear our resident "expert" opine that Schneider, Vigano and others are sowing "confusion" by finally giving some clarity about what is wrong with Vatican II. This poor little boy evidently didn't grow up in the 60's and 70's when this nonbinding "pastoral" council was imposed subjectively and gave birth to the great confusion that we are still dealing with.

Vatican Zero said...

I'm sure there were more than a few priests and bishops in the Fourth Century who would self righteously proclaim, "Arianism is here to stay, so get used to it (or get out)"!

Like Athanasius, Vigano and Schneider are patiently bearing the crosses of our present stupidity and obstinance.

Paul McCarthy said...

https://catholicfamilynews.com/blog/2020/07/29/prominent-italian-theologian-defends-archbishop-viganos-vatican-ii-critique-take-off-the-dogma-and-you-will-unleash-the-antichrist/

A better article. Heretic’s or Catholic’s

Anonymous said...

Vatican Zero, this will push the empty suit, MT, over the top. He should really go over to Father Z's website and argue with him:

"Francis has a mean streak. I get that. Francis is a human being. He’s going to have bad days. Francis’ labeling of people who love the Church’s Tradition as rigid, and the suggestion that there is something psychologically wrong with them is just plain mean. I have in my mind’s eye the episode of him mocking an altar boy who had his hands together, as he was taught, or gossiping derisively about a priest getting a cassock and Roman hat at Euroclero after having inveighed against gossiping many times. How about his drubbing of the Cardinals and Bishops of the Roman Curia as a Christmas gift a few years ago? Francis scoffed at a spiritual bouquet people offered him. He ridiculed people in Chile who were horrified by a bishop who covered up child abuse.

These are not massive ecclesial decisions (like abandoning Catholics in China or wiping out the John Paul II Institute or refusing to answer officially submitted dubia or avoiding transparency and alacrity in investigating a pernicious ex-cardinal), but they are signals. "

Anonymous said...

You forgot about him pulling his hand away when the people were trying to kiss his ring

Anonymous said...

Oh...that was "pre" Pandemic!

Fr H said...

Anon 10:36 - you can’t argue with Fr Z on his blog because he only allows comments that agree with his views - I and many friends know because we’ve tried. The WDTPRS blog is purely an echo chamber of sycophants - otherwise known as the narcissist’s playground!

John Nolan said...

I understand why Joseph Ratzinger, who was a peritus at Vatican II when the Rhine flowed into the Tiber, would be loath to criticize the Council directly, but his postulation of a 'virtual Council' or 'Council of the media' (which media?) on which all the evil consequences of Vatican II can be pinned is singularly unconvincing.

However, these remarks were made only three days after the shock announcement of his abdication, and the clarity of expression which characterized most of his discourse as Pope was on this occasion lacking.

Pierre said...

Fr. H,

Are you saying Father Z's blog is just like Pray Tell where only the sycophants remarks are allowed?

Anonymous said...

Fr H, if what you wrote above is true about Fr Z’s blog, we should be even more grateful for this blog, which allows different views and opinions to be stated and discussed. Can I ask, do you think Fr Hunwicke’s blog is a similar “echo chamber”? Again, I thought Fr Hunwicke’s views on Vatican II stated on his blog (Mutual Encouragement) recently we’re very insightful and the comments that followed were also mostly interesting and insightful.

PG.

Anonymous said...

It might be a bit severe to dismiss Father Z as a seeker of sycophants. I get the impression that he reads all of his comments, but he doesn't have time for a lot of foolishness and doesn't bother with so many of the ridiculous dissents that one might encounter in such a forum (I'm sure one name comes to mind for all of us who post here--Fr. Z would never put up with someone like him). If he DOES get a dissenting or valid question that is sincere or worth responding to, he often posts about the topic. Fr. Z is a brilliant man and just operates "His Way".

John Nolan said...

Americans coming to Fr Hunwicke's 'Mutual Enrichment' blog need to put him in a context which is quintessentially English. He is certainly scholarly but wears his scholarship in a different way than does (say) Peter Kwasniewski (whom I have also met, admire and whose musical knowledge I have benefited from). With Fr Hunwicke scholarship is tempered with whimsy; he delights in paradox and irony, preaches the most entertaining yet thought-provoking homilies, and as a lecturer can hold an audience spellbound when he is the last to speak at the end of a long day.

His critique of what he calls 'Bergoglianism' is trenchant but well-founded, and his contempt for the 'ultrahyperueberpapalism' of certain Francis sycophants would have been shared by St John Henry Newman. Of course in Mark Thomas's Manichaean worldview he is a right-wing mutineer and sower of confusion. But MT would be quite at home in Stalinist Russia, denouncing 'enemies of the people'. No debate, no criticism, no independence of thought.