Well it is Francis, so liturgical oddities and abuse are common place.
And does it really matter any more. He does whatever the hell he wants regardless. So how really cares anymore. 2000 years of Faith and tradition out the window because some modernist who believes more in Peronism then he does in St. Thomas or St. Augustine got elected because a bunch of really unworthy men listened to the media than the Holy Spirit. It's about time to shut off the lights and just close the door. We are all Episcopalians now. Well not me because I didn't fall for his nonsense but you neo cons. Wow. Start hoop jumping.
That is not the Divine Liturgy. We Byzantines do not do anything remotely like that. Our censer has bells and is swung in a pattern of 3s in honor of the Trinity. Anyone silly enough to leave the Catholic Church over this, if it is authentic, needs to investigate first, instead of leaping hastily to conclusions. To become a Baptist over this does not show much of a catholic faith to start with.
Offering an ashtray in reparation for the victims of passive smoking? I no longer care what comes out of the Vatican, an attitude I had to adopt in the decade 1968-1978. The election of JP2 gave some cause for optimism but we seem to be back to square one. The Synod will achieve nothing since the bishops are divided on most moral issues.
However, this morning I sang the Ordinary and Propers for the 17th after Pentecost and still had time to attend the first (Low) TLM at a lovely little village church 12 miles away. Two weeks ago I sang in a schola to support a weekend retreat for young Catholic adults. On Tuesday I shall be attending a sung Mass (Dominican Rite) at Holy Cross, Leicester and shall take the opportunity to run through the Latin Vespers (OF) I shall be singing in London next Saturday.
That's what being a Catholic means; that's what evangelization means; the best we can hope for is to stand close to the cultural construct of Catholicism and promote it whenever and wherever we can. If the Pope and the bishops want to come on board they are welcome; if not, I'll simply ignore them. I've spent my entire adult life having to do so, since the alternative is lapsation. God knows, I've come close to it but I am intellectually convinced of the Truth embodied in the Catholic Church and it will take not a few bad popes and buffoon bishops to shake that conviction.
Oh, for god sake. It took place at the Gesu during Vespers for the 200th anniversary of the re institution of the Jesuits. It's a bowl full of incense that he is using instead of a thurible when he is supposed to incense the altar at the Magnificat. But being a Jesuit, they always have to be liturgically incorrect, and this is just another example.
The moment Bergoglio stepped out onto to Loggia after his election and quickly took of the Mozzeta given to him by Guido Marini and seeing Marini's shocked expression I knew right there we were in for trouble.
John Nolan, isn't it sad that we have come to the point of referring to true Catholicism as a "cultural construct," in essence separating the form from the expression…but, that is what is happening. Thjs phenomenon is seen in the asinine attempt to separate doctrine from "pastoral practice, thus providing Priests and Bishops with a method of evading theological honesty and playing to the politically correct zeitgeist. Oh, and the Pope…he not lika the term adultery…it maka the people uncomfortable. Really?
I'd like to know how many of you have advanced degrees in liturgical studies. If you do not have advanced degrees in liturgical studies, what insight have you that the planners of the liturgy pictured did not have? If you have neither, stop complaining. Liturgy is an evolving, living reality. Plus, many monasteries use bowls for incense at the office. Also, this was a Te Deum service, not vespers as such so there is plenty of room to experiment.
You need to review the video of Pope Francis stepping out onto the loggia. He was given a stole not a mozzetta. Yes, he removed it quickly after giving the blessing, but there was no "shocked expression" by Marini. Please stick to the facts.
You don't need 'advanced degrees in liturgical studies' (whatever they are - they sound like the things US choir directors acquire via correspondence courses which encourage them to style themselves as liturgists and start messing around with the liturgy) to criticize this sort of thing.
The same service at the Gesu had deacons wearing their stoles over their dalmatics, another example of modish faddism which this Pope is supposed to be against. These things may appear to be minor in themselves, but they indicate a particularly obnoxious form of clericalism wherein the said clerics think that the liturgy is theirs to manipulate and 'experiment with' as they see fit.
It was a feature of the pre-Conciliar Liturgical Movement, but the post-Conciliar liturgical reforms allowed it to reach epidemic proportions.
Father G the Mozzeta or stole the point being made is this papacy is a utter disaster. Who am i to judge, washing the feet of women and infidel Mohamadeans, no need to convert people or spread the Holy Faith, calling Traditionalists all types of names, calling Marxists and atheists his friends. Shall I go on dear Father G the list is many.
The closing Mass of this Synod will also be the occasion for the beatification of the worst pope of modern times, Paul VI. I'm not saying that everything that happened was his fault, but it happened on his watch.
If this turns out to be as long a pontificate (Deus avertat!) the capacity for further damage is great, especially since JP II and B XVI were effectively engaged in a prolonged and only partly successful damage-limitation exercise.
I agree with John Nolan and would like to assert that anyone who takes part in/participates in the liturgy is a liturgist. The liturgiologist who patronizingly pontificates on liturgical matters and when questioned, becomes defensive and cites his degrees as his authority is a case where we have nothing to fear but the ignorance of the expert. If a Liturgiologist (or, as they like to call themselves, liturgist)is such a professional, they need to shop for malpractice insurance so I can sue the for damages when they commit malpractice by delivering me a defective liturgy in those matters here do they do not say the black and do the red. Even if the case is thrown out, a few such cases will shake them up and then after a little judge shopping we may find one who is willing to entertain the case. Even if case is dismissed, the cost of defense will teach them a lesson.
18 comments:
Well it is Francis, so liturgical oddities and abuse are common place.
And does it really matter any more. He does whatever the hell he wants regardless. So how really cares anymore. 2000 years of Faith and tradition out the window because some modernist who believes more in Peronism then he does in St. Thomas or St. Augustine got elected because a bunch of really unworthy men listened to the media than the Holy Spirit. It's about time to shut off the lights and just close the door. We are all Episcopalians now. Well not me because I didn't fall for his nonsense but you neo cons. Wow. Start hoop jumping.
Jesuits...
Give. Me. A. Break.
I'm about to just be Baptist and be rid of this nonsense.
?
It looks like he is emptying an ash tray.
It seems photoshopped…but with Pope Francis it wouldn't surprise me…it appears as if he's attempting to do a Divine Liturgy
IM DONE WITH NEW ROME!T The Roman Catholic Church is dead.
Joe,
That is not the Divine Liturgy. We Byzantines do not do anything remotely like that. Our censer has bells and is swung in a pattern of 3s in honor of the Trinity.
Anyone silly enough to leave the Catholic Church over this, if it is authentic, needs to investigate first, instead of leaping hastily to conclusions. To become a Baptist over this does not show much of a catholic faith to start with.
Any clues Father McDonald?
Offering an ashtray in reparation for the victims of passive smoking? I no longer care what comes out of the Vatican, an attitude I had to adopt in the decade 1968-1978. The election of JP2 gave some cause for optimism but we seem to be back to square one. The Synod will achieve nothing since the bishops are divided on most moral issues.
However, this morning I sang the Ordinary and Propers for the 17th after Pentecost and still had time to attend the first (Low) TLM at a lovely little village church 12 miles away. Two weeks ago I sang in a schola to support a weekend retreat for young Catholic adults. On Tuesday I shall be attending a sung Mass (Dominican Rite) at Holy Cross, Leicester and shall take the opportunity to run through the Latin Vespers (OF) I shall be singing in London next Saturday.
That's what being a Catholic means; that's what evangelization means; the best we can hope for is to stand close to the cultural construct of Catholicism and promote it whenever and wherever we can. If the Pope and the bishops want to come on board they are welcome; if not, I'll simply ignore them. I've spent my entire adult life having to do so, since the alternative is lapsation. God knows, I've come close to it but I am intellectually convinced of the Truth embodied in the Catholic Church and it will take not a few bad popes and buffoon bishops to shake that conviction.
Oh, for god sake. It took place at the Gesu during Vespers for the 200th anniversary of the re institution of the Jesuits. It's a bowl full of incense that he is using instead of a thurible when he is supposed to incense the altar at the Magnificat. But being a Jesuit, they always have to be liturgically incorrect, and this is just another example.
The moment Bergoglio stepped out onto to Loggia after his election and quickly took of the Mozzeta given to him by Guido Marini and seeing Marini's shocked expression I knew right there we were in for trouble.
John Nolan, isn't it sad that we have come to the point of referring to true Catholicism as a "cultural construct," in essence separating the form from the expression…but, that is what is happening. Thjs phenomenon is seen in the asinine attempt to separate doctrine from "pastoral practice, thus providing Priests and Bishops with a method of evading theological honesty and playing to the politically correct zeitgeist. Oh, and the Pope…he not lika the term adultery…it maka the people uncomfortable. Really?
I'd like to know how many of you have advanced degrees in liturgical studies. If you do not have advanced degrees in liturgical studies, what insight have you that the planners of the liturgy pictured did not have? If you have neither, stop complaining. Liturgy is an evolving, living reality. Plus, many monasteries use bowls for incense at the office. Also, this was a Te Deum service, not vespers as such so there is plenty of room to experiment.
@Anonymous,
You need to review the video of Pope Francis stepping out onto the loggia. He was given a stole not a mozzetta. Yes, he removed it quickly after giving the blessing, but there was no "shocked expression" by Marini. Please stick to the facts.
James, I know it isn't, I was just expressing my first impressions...and I'm certainly familiar with our Divine Liturgy.
I've gotten so used to Liturgical non abuse that one forgets there are problems in the other side of the world :p
You don't need 'advanced degrees in liturgical studies' (whatever they are - they sound like the things US choir directors acquire via correspondence courses which encourage them to style themselves as liturgists and start messing around with the liturgy) to criticize this sort of thing.
The same service at the Gesu had deacons wearing their stoles over their dalmatics, another example of modish faddism which this Pope is supposed to be against. These things may appear to be minor in themselves, but they indicate a particularly obnoxious form of clericalism wherein the said clerics think that the liturgy is theirs to manipulate and 'experiment with' as they see fit.
It was a feature of the pre-Conciliar Liturgical Movement, but the post-Conciliar liturgical reforms allowed it to reach epidemic proportions.
Father G the Mozzeta or stole the point being made is this papacy is a utter disaster. Who am i to judge, washing the feet of women and infidel Mohamadeans, no need to convert people or spread the Holy Faith, calling Traditionalists all types of names, calling Marxists and atheists his friends. Shall I go on dear Father G the list is many.
The closing Mass of this Synod will also be the occasion for the beatification of the worst pope of modern times, Paul VI. I'm not saying that everything that happened was his fault, but it happened on his watch.
If this turns out to be as long a pontificate (Deus avertat!) the capacity for further damage is great, especially since JP II and B XVI were effectively engaged in a prolonged and only partly successful damage-limitation exercise.
I agree with John Nolan and would like to assert that anyone who takes part in/participates in the liturgy is a liturgist. The liturgiologist who patronizingly pontificates on liturgical matters and when questioned, becomes defensive and cites his degrees as his authority is a case where we have nothing to fear but the ignorance of the expert. If a Liturgiologist (or, as they like to call themselves, liturgist)is such a professional, they need to shop for malpractice insurance so I can sue the for damages when they commit malpractice by delivering me a defective liturgy in those matters here do they do not say the black and do the red. Even if the case is thrown out, a few such cases will shake them up and then after a little judge shopping we may find one who is willing to entertain the case. Even if case is dismissed, the cost of defense will teach them a lesson.
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