Vatican II asked for a very conservative refinement of the Tridentine Mass, not a wholesale reform oR revision. Consilium and the spirit of Vatican II liturgical theologians reformed and revised the Mass way beyond what Vatican II wanted and it is the reformist agenda of theologians, post-Consilium, that did the most damage, not only to the manner in which the Modern Mass is celebrated but its environment! It was all blamed on Vatican II.
Worse than that, the laity and most of the clergy did not ask for the changes in the Mass that were imposed upon them in the most pre-Vatican II authoritarian manner. To boot, we were told that we were wrong in preferring the old ways to the new and this just a few years after Vatican II. It was crass, ideological manipulation by using psychology to do it! WHAT WAS CONSIDERED HOLY ONE MOMENT WAS DEMONIZED THE NEXT! That’s almost up there with blaspheming the Holy Spirit!
Pope Leo, lead the hierarchy in a repentance of that and how the modern Mass was disfigured by bishops, priests and laity and almost immediately after the new Missal was promulgated by improvisation and creativity.
And that manipulation was used to change the Church from what it was to what is almost unrecognizable to what is was. Vatican II did not mandate that.
Pope Leo lead the hierarchy in a repentance of that.
My recommendation is to do what Vatican II asked in terms of the refinement of the Mass. Minor simplification, more intelligibility, which means some vernacular while maintaining Latin and Greek.
Repent of forcing the Mass to be celebrated facing the people and on a free standing altar. Repent of forcing people to stand to receive Holy Communion in the hand and from a parade of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Repent of the forced wreckovation of churches, altars and Catholicism.
Repent of saying everything about the Tridentine Mass was wrong based upon organic development that was codified in its rubrics. Not only were the rubrics mocked but every mystical aspect associated with the Tridentine Mass was mocked and derided as well as the spirituality and morality that flows from the TLM.
If the Holy Father doesn’t want to return the Tridentine Mass, give the Modern Mass every aspect of the form and ethos of the Tridentine Mass. It isn’t too difficult to do so.
Those who want the Tridentine Rite exclusively and reject everything about Vatican II including the popes of Vatican II and use the most vile language against Vatican II and the popes. REPENT!
18 comments:
Can you give an example of what you mean by the mystical aspects of the mass?
God bless you and yes, I am praying for you and I will offer today’s 12:15 PM EST Mass at St.Gregory the Great Church in Bluffton, SC for your intentions.
Thank you so much, very kind unexpected but really appreciated
Interestingly enough, while I have celebrated the TLM on a regular basis since 2007, I have not attended a TLM by sitting in the pew to participate. I remember doing so for the first part of my life until I was about 13 years old. But as a priest, the mystical aspect for me, especially in the sung version of the TLM with Gregorian Chant, transports me in a mystical way which the modern Mass when sung does not do for me. In addition, two other things help in the mysticism, the Latin, as it isn’t used in a secular way, being a dead language, but easily translated into a vernacular and the silence during actual liturgical prayer, in particular the praying of the Roman Canon. When I first started celebrating the TLM in 2007, I did not remember from childhood that it was prayed in a quiet voice. Thus, I felt uncomfortable not praying it out loud for the congregation to hear. Since that time, I have come to see it as the experience of mysticism par excellence. Of course, all of this could happen in the Modern Mass with TLM rubrics in terms of low voice prayer and ad orientem as well as kneeling for Holy Communion.
God help us!
European Catholicism is uniquely indebted to the legacy of Vatican II, and so this moment raises inevitable questions about ideas like ecumenism, interreligious dialogue, religious liberty, and relations between church and state. New forms of re-evangelization that defy the conventions of Christianity in secularized Europe also raise challenges. The institutions of the Tridentine–Vatican II Catholic order (diocese and parishes, seminaries and theological faculties in universities, and Catholic organizations under the control of the hierarchy) now play a much smaller role, while membership in lay-run ecclesial movements has plateaued.
As the old ecclesiastical and ecclesial systems wane, new ones are waxing—influenced by what’s happening in the United States.
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/massimo-european-catholicism-leo-germany-austria-church
Big Benny said..."Father, please can i ask that you pray for me as I’ve had some very bad news health wise and things are not looking good."
Big Benny, you had addressed the above to Father McDonald. But please note that I, a poor sinner, have prayed, and Deo volente, intend to continue to pray for you.
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Big Benny, you have requested prayers from a holy, powerful intercessor in Father McDonald.
A few years ago, I had entreated Father McDonald to pray for several family members of mine who had contracted COVID. My relatives in question then recovered rapidly from COVID.
Father McDonald is God's holy priest.
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In addition, and perhaps best of all, Father McDonald resembles Robert Vaughn. Not bad! Not bad at all!
:-)
Pax.
Mark Thomas
benny,
Also praying for you. Our disagreements do not surmount that.
Nick
Be assured of my prayers for your health as well, Benny.
Sophia here! Definitely praying for you, Benny - that Jesus Himself, the Perfect and Infinitely Merciful Physician , accompany you throughout this very challenging journey!
It is hilarious to suggest that one is "politicizing" the Mass by being devoted to the TLM, a Rite, which was celebrated for over 1500 years. It is the Left that has politicized the Mass. One simple example that even the braindead will understand, altar girls. They were introduced as a matter of "social justice" or "fairness" or some such other nonsense. There was no theological basis for doing so. Pope Leo looks like a Pope, I hope he acts like one with regard to the TLM. Otherwise, I will know we have another dud.
Thank you. Unfortunately things are too far progressed so recovery is not on the cards (miracle excluded).
There was no theological reason to exclude girls from altar service. It had nothing to do with social justice.
The female altar servers at Westminster Cathedral are excellent. They served for Pooe Benedict and Princess Michael of Kent’s funeral.
In the USA Massimo Faggioli is seen as a lightweight of Progressive Catholicism. I appreciate his insights into European Catholicism. Europe, for whatever reason, was way, way, way ahead of the USA in crass secularization—just has Europe has been way, way, way ahead of the USA in embracing dictatorships, monarchies, fascism, Nazism and now secularism, the godless kind. Faggioli would do well to compliment the USA on its religiosity, not just from Catholics, but Protestantism, Judaism and now, increasingly so, the Muslim community. Godless secularism kind of experienced a jump start under President Obama. Faggioli would do well to make clear the differences in true Catholicism from that of the heterodox left and right. Those two extremes need to be challenged, not Catholicism pure and simple as articulate in the CCC and the Deposit of Faith. It’s out in the open for anyone to find—no secret knowledge.
"...for me, especially in the sung version of the TLM with Gregorian Chant, transports me in a mystical way which the modern Mass when sung does not do for me."
But the mass, in either form, isn't about what you or any priest experiences. Therein lies one of the principle weaknesses of the liturgy if understood this way.
The liturgy isn't an action of the priest, something designed to cause him to feel the upwellings of something he describes as "mystical transporting." It is an action of the worshipping community. Participants have their particular roles, but all serve the whole.
The laity is the unwitting victim in the Novus Ordo, totally subject to the whims of the celebrant. The celebrant is the master of the Liturgy, he can pick and choose which introductory rite he feels like that day, which Eucharistic Pray to use, and ad lib what he doesn't like. This is a recipe for disaster, which the Novus Ordo is. In stark contrast, the TLM constrains the priest. He is the servant of the Liturgy, not its master and there are no unwanted surprises that the laity must endure.
TJM you must be a total control freak. I’ve never felt annoyed at which penitential rite or Eucharistic prayer the celebrant chooses and doing so hardly makes him a master. Some ad lib a little too much but most keep their comments brief and are appropriate in time and content..
Obama was not godless.
By all accounts he holds strong Christian convictions and close associations with ministers from his denominations which underpin his strong convictions about social justice.
From wiki…
In January 2008, Obama told Christianity Today: "I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life."[105] On September 27, 2010, Obama released a statement commenting on his religious views, saying:
I'm a Christian by choice. My family didn't—frankly, they weren't folks who went to church every week. And my mother was one of the most spiritual people I knew, but she didn't raise me in the church. So I came to my Christian faith later in life, and it was because the precepts of Jesus Christ spoke to me in terms of the kind of life that I would want to lead—being my brothers' and sisters' keeper, treating others as they would treat me.
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