This is what Pope Leo said to Elise Allen (great last name btw, although spelled wrong) the following:
“Well, you can say Mass in Latin right now. If it’s the Vatican II Rite there’s no problem.”
Holy Father, let me request some indults concerning how the Modern Mass can be celebrated in Latin.
1. Make clear the Modern Mass may be celebrated facing either direction.
2. Allow the option of the Roman Canon prayed in a quiet voice with all the TLM rubrics and the inclusion of the Mysterium Fideii embedded in the consecration of the Precious Blood.
3. Make clear by way of rubric, that kneeling for Holy Communion has a place of pride in the Modern Mass.
It seems to me that if the Modern Mass is celebrated in Latin with the options I would like the Holy Father to codify, that indeed, it would be in continuity with the TLM but the Mass of Paul VI.
And beyond that, if the pope would allow the Order of the TLM, the PATFOTA, the older offertory prayers, the triple Domini non sum Dignus and the Last Gospel, applied to the Modern Mass—that would be the icing on the cake!
29 comments:
In other words allow an almost reversal of the liturgical reforms.
Also you’ve hardened your stance. You used to advocate the 1965 missal
Advocacy for the 1965 Missal is the hardened stance as that is basically the TLM. The relaxed stance is using the most recent edition of the Roman Missal and its lectionary withe the TLM allowances.
Pope Leo XIV: "If we celebrate the Vatican II liturgy in a proper way, do you really find that much difference between this experience and that experience?"
Various "traditionalists" have reacted negatively to the above declaration. Example:
https://bigmodernism.substack.com/p/its-over-trad-inc?r=5mfttc&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true
-- It’s Over, Trad Inc!
"Leo says the quiet part out loud: Trads can shut up and say the Novus Ordo in Latin."
Chris Jackson Sep 19, 2025
"...Leo gave a bombshell interview to Crux senior correspondent Elise Ann Allen...Leo laid out his vision on four flashpoints that have torn at the Church for decades: homosexuality, women’s ordination, synodality, and the liturgy.
"He signaled openness to revisiting women’s ordination, defended Fiducia Supplicans on LGBT blessings, suggested episcopal conferences might gain doctrinal clout, and dismissed the difference between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo as a matter of attitude.
"Finally, Leo’s remarks on the liturgy deserve their own autopsy. First, he tries to reduce the entire battle to a matter of language:
“The question about, people always say ‘the Latin Mass.’ Well, you can say Mass in Latin right now. If it’s the Vatican II rite there’s no problem.”
"This is either ignorance or insult. Traditional Catholics have spent half a century explaining that the issue is not the language, it is the rite itself: its theology, its prayers, its gestures, its orientation, its very soul.
"No one endured persecution, exile, and mockery just to hear Eucharistic Prayer II in Latin.
"But the worst line comes here:
"If we celebrate the Vatican II liturgy in a proper way, do you really find that much difference between this experience and that experience?”
"This is gaslighting. To say the Tridentine Mass and a “well-done” Novus Ordo are basically the same is to spit in the face of every Catholic who has tasted the difference.
"The rites do not just “feel” different, they are theologically different. One is an organic fruit of tradition, the other a committee product stitched together in the 1960s.
"To suggest they are interchangeable reveals exactly why Leo will never defend the old rite: in his mind, there’s no reason it should exist at all."
"After this interview, no one can plead ignorance. Leo has spoken plainly. He entertains women’s ordination. He leaves open the door to doctrinal change on homosexuality once “attitudes” soften. He toys with making episcopal conferences mini-magisteriums.
"He dismisses the gulf between the Mass of the Ages and the Novus Ordo as a matter of mood."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"Various traditionalists" amounts to Chris Jackson, a notoriously eccentric crank who has gone off the rhetorical rails since Pope Leo's election.
Nick
Although Jackson claims he isn't a sedevacantist, I'm not sure that holds any water when he accuses both Pope Leo and Vatican II of modernism. Unless he believes a heretic can be pope, which would just deepen his off-the-rails, cranky eccentricity.
Nick
Mark, I can’t tell if you are just quoting Leo and supportive or are criticising him.
I think it’s dangerous saying the TLM has a different theology, although it’s the result of a reformed ecclesiology. Similarly the church’s teaching on homosexuality are not doctrine. Not all church teaching is doctrinal.
Why continue with a form of Mass (Novus Ordo) when it has been a proven flop?
The question that I posed to Cardinal Ratzinger was this: “If we say at every Mass, ‘Look not upon our sins, but on the faith of your church,’ then why do we constantly focus on the sin of the homosexual?”
I would like to tell you he responded to my question, but he just sat there and remained silent. After an uncomfortable period of silence, no further questions were permitted.
https://outreach.faith/2023/01/im-an-lgbtq-catholic-activist-who-invites-you-to-see-the-goodness-of-pope-benedict-xvi/
Nick,
"Various traditionalists" include far more folks than Chris Jackson. Throughout Trad Inc., a tremendous amount of negativity has been expressed in regard to Pope Leo XIV's interview-related declarations.
"Eccentric crank" Chris Jackson has espoused views that have long formed mainstream thinking within the TLM Movement. But let us examine Chris Jackson's comments in regard to Pope Leo XIV's interview in question.
For now, let us focus upon the issue of liturgy.
Chris Jackson: "Finally, Leo’s remarks on the liturgy...First, he tries to reduce the entire battle to a matter of language:"
Pope Leo XIV: “The question about, people always say ‘the Latin Mass.’ Well, you can say Mass in Latin right now. If it’s the Vatican II rite there’s no problem.”
Based upon the Pope's above declaration, Chris Jackson had reported accurately that the TLM-related "battle" had been reduced first to "a matter of language."
Chris Jackson added accurately that "Traditional Catholics have spent half a century explaining that the issue is not the language, it is the rite itself: its theology, its prayers, its gestures, its orientation, its very soul."
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Pope Leo XIV: "If we celebrate the Vatican II liturgy in a proper way, do you really find that much difference between this experience and that experience?”
Chris Jackson: "This is gaslighting. To say the Tridentine Mass and a “well-done” Novus Ordo are basically the same is to spit in the face of every Catholic who has tasted the difference.
"The rites do not just “feel” different, they are theologically different. One is an organic fruit of tradition, the other a committee product stitched together in the 1960s."
Chris Jackson has espoused via the above mainstream "traditional Catholic" thought. That is, the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI constitutes fabricated liturgy. Said Mass, as espoused throughout the TLM Movement, is "a committee product stitched together in the 1960s."
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Chris Jackson: "To suggest they are interchangeable reveals exactly why Leo will never defend the old rite: in his mind, there’s no reason it should exist at all."
It does not follow that Pope Leo XIV "will never defend the old rite:"
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Chris Jackson added that "in his (Pope Leo XIV's) mind, there’s no reason it should exist at all."
Chris Jackson has a point in that Pope Leo XIV introduced the notion: "Well, you can say Mass in Latin right now. If it’s the Vatican II rite there’s no problem."
Again, that does not mean that His Holiness "will never defend the old rite."
However, there is the notion that the TLM is unnecessary when all that is required is to view the "Vatican II rite" (Pope Leo XIV's words) as THE Latin Mass.
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I will stand with Pope Leo XIV in regard to any teachings that he may render in regard to the TLM issue within the Church.
But it's undeniable that Chris Jackson has presented mainstream TLM Movement arguments to advance his negative assessment of Pope Leo XIV's liturgical-related comments in question.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Sins between the navel and the knees have always drawn unwarranted attention.
big benny said..."Mark, I can’t tell if you are just quoting Leo and supportive or are criticising him."
big benny, I appreciate your response. I apologize for the confusion in question.
I have quoted often "traditionalists" to demonstrate the widespread spiritual war against Holy Mother Church/our holy Popes that has long marked/marred the TLM Movement.
I assure you that I am 100 percent on board with Pope Benedict XVI's 2013 A.D. holy example of having pledged his "unconditional respect and obedience" to his successor(s).
I stand with His Holiness, Pope Leo XIV. God has raised Pope Leo XIV to teach, govern, and sanctify us.
Thank you.
big benny, may you, as well as your family, experience peace. I continue to pray for your, as well as your family's, good health.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
"Sins between the navel and the knees have always drawn unwarranted attention"
Sounds like a confession, K
You just try getting a Novus Ordo Mass in Latin in Canada! The sky would fall on ANY Priest who dared to ask for that-not even thinking of Versus Populum! Sorry Father; the cult of the Spirit of VII has a stranglehold-aided and abetted by the Late Pope Francis.
Why continue with a form of Mass (Novus Ordo) when it has been a proven flop?
99% of catholics don’t agree!
In the USA, during Vatican II, nearly 90% of all Catholics attended weekly Mass. today it is about 20%. In the northeast, meaning New York to Massachusetts, maybe 7% of Catholics attended weekly Mass. whatever low percentage of Catholics who attended Mass. of that, yes 99% do not agree the NO is a flop.
Father McDonald, LOL!! The remaining folks just don't know any better. The sentient voted with their feet LONG AGO!!!
Correlation doesn’t prove causation!
Among other social changes such as secularisation that are likely to have impacted religiosity and mass attendance, there was Humanae Vitae and the sex abuse scandal which were highly detrimental; alongside more recently Covid significantly impacted church attendance.
Plus we don’t know what would have happened if there had been no V2. I suspect we could be in a worse position. Certainly, evangelisation and the growth of the church in Africa / Asia would have been less successful.
""Eccentric crank" Chris Jackson has espoused views that have long formed mainstream thinking within the TLM Movement."
Oh, come on. You know that's not what I said. You quoted Jackson as a representative of traditionalists, and nothing you said in follow-up supports that position. And on the contrary, Jackson has directed his vituperation at anyone ranging from the SSPX to Michael Matt to Taylor Marshall to Peter Kwasnieski to Cardinal Burke (and anyone else he has deemed fit to label Trad Inc.).
The man has declared that modernism is the heart of Pope Leo's papacy. Just because he repeats some of the things other traditionalists say doesn't at all make him representative of Trad Inc. or traditionalists in general. Not even close.
"Chris Jackson has espoused via the above mainstream "traditional Catholic" thought. That is, the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI constitutes fabricated liturgy. Said Mass, as espoused throughout the TLM Movement, is "a committee product stitched together in the 1960s.""
This idea comes from Cardinal Ratzinger. Shall we tar Jackson and Pope Benedict with the same brush?
No, MT. This dog won't hunt. There is no one representative opinion-holder of "traditionalists," and even if there were, as much as you try to force it, it wouldn't be Chris Jackson.
Nick
Multiple studies have linked the collapse in Catholic religious practice to the changes following by and in the "spirit" of the Council, not Humanae Vitae, the sex abuse scandals, or COVID (how would COVID have an effect back in the 1970s?)
"evangelisation and the growth of the church in Africa / Asia would have been less successful."
I doubt that. The growth in the number of Catholics in Africa exceeded population growth in the 20th century until the 1960s; since then, the number of Catholics has increased at barely the rate that the population has increased. Not much of a new springtime, unless winter now has more growth than spring by comparison.
Nick
Can you qoute your studies so we can see their methodology and whether they’re reliable?
The decline in church membership is inevitably due to a complex interplay of variables. Church membership was already on the decline from the high point of the 1950s and has affected all denominations not just Catholic so I can’t see how anyone can attribute it solely to the council.
Also you can’t separate V2 from the zeitgeist of the 60s/70s and the profound social changes that resulted in the sexual revolution with greater sexual permissiveness from the invention of reliable birth control which led to later marriage and smaller families / greater acceptance of cohabitation etc, plus secularisation and globalisation from the 1980s..
It’s often said the council was too late. Preparations were already in place at the time of Pius XII but was inevitably delayed by the world war.
big booby, Protestant denominations declined far more rapidly due to their looney leftism, but the Catholic Church eventually caught up.
Not all Protestant sects are liberal, many are very conservative so can’t just put it down to that. The reality is church going and religiosity in general has declined due to secularism which has affected the west most but is impacting all societies as they become more westernised.
Keep beating that tired old canard. If you have a quality product people will come which is why young people are attracted to the TLM and not Brand X that you adore.
You can't separate the two, but I'm shocked so few people manage to consider that, in a time of "profound social change," it was the Church's job to provide stability, as she always had historically, rather than throwing everything in the Church up for grabs, too.
Nick
I'll try to dig them up but can't at the moment.
Nick
The TLM which is bought by less than 0.01% of the Catholic population worldwide, with many of the purchasers being sedes or schismatics!
Interesting, vocations within the CofE are plentiful. They ordain more priests than they have placements for.
Something like 7% of people who attend Mass in the US attend the TLM. I wonder what data for other countries would show if it were available?
Nick
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2022/09/13/anatomist-of-the-catholic-collapse-in-france-and-beyond/
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/265979/economics-paper-suggests-mass-decline-tied-to-vatican-ii-implementation#:~:text=The%20trend%20began%20immediately%20after,The%20effect%20is%20statistically%20significant.”
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w34060/w34060.pdf
Nick
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