The same is true with the revised English translation. Certainly there was some concern about the style of the English translation by an elite group of laity but its revision and implementation was top down.
However, the return of the EF Mass first under limited circumstances and then later in a more broad way was from the bottom up although the permission is from the top down. But polling of parishes on the desire to have the EF Mass was requested before the Mass would be allowed in the EF to determine a legitimate need of a stable group who desired it.
On the parish level, the wise pastor knows not to impose that which is not mandated without some input by the laity in terms of consultation and usually through the pastoral council.
For example, let's say my bishop gave me permission to take one of the Sunday Masses and make it very traditional. Let's say I proposed to him that our 12:10 PM Mass be celebrated ad orientem with kneeling for Holy Communion (although those who wish to stand would still be able) and that at this very same Mass, on the first Sunday of the Month it would be an EF Mass. Should I then consult with the pastoral council to the real need for such an option at St. Joseph Church. Should I not also survey the 12:10 Mass after some catechesis about the reason for it before I imposed it from a top down method?
This is all theoretical, but shouldn't that which is not mandated be decided upon in a more democratic way?
19 comments:
Hmmm.... I can't argue against sampling the desires of the people, as the slow return of the EF Mass clearly has been by request. However, I would argue that before the will of the people should be allowed to determine a course of action, there must be good catechesis. My reasoning is simply that opinion uninformed by proper teaching, while still opinion, should arguably carry little weight in determining the direction of parish liturgical practice.
In my own parish, were the pastor to sample only the pastoral committee, there would be no change. I think in these matters, it will be better to catechize the congregation, and then to sample their views, not merely those of a committee which may well have been responsible for current practice.
I do not disagree one iota with how the "changes mandated by Vatican II" were handed down from the Top. I disagree emphaticly with the nature of the changes which were unauthorized, exceeded the authority of the Council, and were illict to the extent that the Council did not desire a New Mass, merely a reform of the old.
So, should changes at a Parish level not mandated be done Democraticly? Absolutely, positively, NO!! This is not implying it needs be autocratic, but I see nothing wrong with how father Newman introduced Ad Orientem at St Mary's as a prime example.
I want my Priests to be Leaders. They are trained to be so. Asking opinions of the uninformed results in horrible results (see 2008 Presidential Election for reference). When Priests behave in a Heterodox manner they will be called on it. This is not 1955. The Liturgical and Sexual abuse scandals for the past 40 years have put us on our guard, and the laity will hold Clergy accountable to their Bishops and higher. But Priests should not be sticking their fingers in the air checking the weather.
Pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance! Pray to St John Vianney for guidance! And then do what YOU know to be BEST for the formation of the Faithful and the Salvation of Souls. Be our Shepherd not our Mayor.
No matter from what direction authentic reform comes, discernment and catechesis, in equal and heavy doses, must be a part of it. And is that not also what is truly means to be pastoral as well?
Shouldn't that which is not mandated be decided upon in a more democratic way?
No. It is interesting that the offering of the Tridentine Mass is to come about in a "bottom up" manner, though. It's almost like whoever came up with that idea knew that it would never work to have millions of people who have never experienced something be expected to suddently ask for it.
Why not poll everyone at the 2 p.m. monthly High Mass to see if they'd like to have a weekly Sunday Latin Mass? That would be a poll in line with the directives of Summorum Pontificum... Notice that polling a congregation as you suggested at the implementation of Summorum Pontificum is way outside the directive, which has been clarified by not putting a number on the size of the "stable group" - something the Holy Father did in Universae Ecclesiae to demonstrate that such poll requests by bishops was not in line with his directives in SP.
I could be mischievous here (and I do offer this post in good humor) and ask whether there should have been widespread consultation about whether the tree outside the side door should have been cut down. (Same for the large tree in the parking lot.)
Obviously these had nothing to do with liturgy, much less mandated rubrics, but in some ways it's an apt analogy. Many people are tree-huggers, many in the parish were long-accustomed to those particular trees, and their removal isn't something that can be quickly or easily undone.
As I recall, the first tree was murdered--er, excuse me, removed :-) --with no prior notice (to my knowledge, anyway) and explanations only given afterward. While there were prior explanations given as to the second tree--that it was very sick and dying--I got the sense that Fr. McD was glad of the convenient terminal condition, and at any rate he _told_ the parish at large of the tree's fate rather than asking many (any?) folks what the fate should be. While there was disappointment and even upset in some quarters, the world didn't end. Same result with the wee bit of Latin instituted in the NO a year or so back; a few persons acted as if the change amounted to torturing kittens or something, but we all lived through it, and as far as I know they kept attending Mass.
So why isn't this a good model for further liturgical change?
I'm sure, Fr. McDonald, that you're too savvy and prudent a pastor to really need scattershot advice. And certainly any opinion of mine is offered from too great a distance to matter. (Even though in the now rather distant past I served as a parish council member at another St. Joseph's Church in the same state as yours.)
However, since you've invited it anyway . . . . Surely any such initiative would be preceded by sufficient consultation, providing positive pastoral leadership to lay an adequate foundation within the parish. Realizing the difference between consultation that involves more information and catechesis, and a mechanical democratic decision perhaps based on entirely uninformed opinion.
Rather than a meaningless cold poll, I suspect that (with or without outside advice, whether sollicted or unsollicited) you'd adopt a careful approach similar to that of Fr. Newman at St. Mary's in Greenville. As you probably know, prior to an actual decision, he presented catechesis on turning to the East on five consecutive Sundays in his parish. Then a certain period for assimilation and percolation of the idea transpired, during which he surely consulted widely in the parish--though, so far as I know, no vote or poll as such was taken--before finally making and announcing a final decision to proceed. Given where the church is now, some such carefully deliberative process--resulting in broad understanding if not predominant agreement--is surely necessary if the initiative is to be successful. People should understand what you propose and why, even if unanimous agreement is not possible.
In case any of your readers are interested, I just checked and found that Fr. Newman's program of parish catechesis is still on line at
http://www.stmarysgvl.org/whatsnew/turning-together-towards-the-lord
I would contend that the return of the EF has NOT been by request.
It's return was mandated by SP and reinforced by subsequent additional mandates, both of which are still being ignored by over 90% of the Dioceses and Parishes. Furthermore I think it ws mandated by the Pope precisely because he, more than anyone, is aware of the problems with the NO. He wants the two forms of the Latin Rite to stand side by side in Parishes and give the Laity a chance to compare them side by side, yet no where is that happening.
What sort of training to be leaders do priests recieve?
I don't see the dilemma. IN your example you are holding Mass in an authorised form with the permission of your bishop. You are not changing all services to the EF, but are conducting one specific and regularly scheduled service in that manner. You would be doing this as a) catechesis for your parish, or b) at the request of a stable group. Assuming you have the time to conduct this correctly it seems very reasonable.
Conversely, I can imagine that you could, 40 years hence, conduct a rock mass with Youtube videos just to show people another, permissible, example.
rcg
That word "democratic" usually means trouble in a Church established "top-down," as it were, and of necessity authoritarian. Democratic generally means egalitarian and levelling in our post French Revolution mentality. Egalitarian thinking and obligatory "democracy" have been dangerous fads for some time now. It is time to set limits. I personally do not want my Priest consulting with my peers regarding what I need in worship or ministry. I know some of these people and would never consult them on my own even to ask the time, much less how worship should be conducted. Please...
Father said: "Should I then consult with the pastoral council to the real need for such an option..."
I've always been annoyed at the role of the Pastoral Council, or Parish Council as I recall it being called in my younger days. Those who sit upon these Councils seem to do so by being popular. Granted at St Joseph Father leavens the Council with appointees as well, but at so many places these Councils are the grown up equivilant of being named King and Queen of the Prom. If a Priest is actually going to consult with a Council on a matter of Liturgy, shouldn't those Council members have had to at least domonstrate the faculty to hold a legitimate opinion on the subject? I don't ask my banker for medical advice, why should I ask that banker for Liturgical advice becasue he is popular with the "in clique" at Church and got elected to Grand Poobah of the Pastoral Council?
Father don't consult anyone, you do what you think is best. You are the one God will judge on the care of souls, not the parish council.
Poll the parishioners???That would be assuming they are educated on the matter.
But you are a good convincer, so I imagine that your catechesis would do the trick quite nicely!
May I suggest...
Cathechize a whole lot on the topic...which I think ought to be done regardless of whether or not future polling or changes would take place (people don't know what they don't know until somebody tells them)...then poll.
BTW: it's so totally COOL that my child recognizes and feels comfortable with some Latin from pre-new translation Latin you brought into the OF Mass!!! Thank you!!!
My child is already experiencing Catholic riches I was robbed of experiencing growing up in the 1970's Church. Hooray!
...hint, hint :-)
Deo Gracias!
~SqueekerLamb
People can't really be expected to make an educated decision without knowing both Masses well. Otherwise you are asking them to do something foreign to them for no reason. How many will really go for that? The EF Mass is one that grows and matures inside you for a lifetime. It is not the instant gratification type liturgy that is often the advertised "staple" of the OF Mass. Is it really a balanced choice or decision that people would be polled to make? Some of us still have enough trust in our Priests and the Magesterium to know what may be beneficial to our Souls. If the EF has been determined to be so, then what really is the question here to be posed? Would any single Soul not benefit from exposure to the EF Mass at least several times during one's temporal lifetime? Maybe this is a better question to be asked. The answer probably nullifies the need for the question in the first place.
Gregorian Mass, Hear hear!
I notice in the bulletin where I attended Mass today and at other times that, for the first time, there are instructions for receiving on the tongue. I wonder what this means and what prompted it...
How does one give instructions on what is the Normative way to receive? And where were you Pin, if I can ask?
Hi Templar, I was at Sacred Heart in Milledgeville, Atlanta Diocese. There was a visiting Priest, Fr. David Daly, who said he was from the Legionnaires for Christ. I did not know what that was, so I looked it up...oops...seems like they have had their problems..like an investigation led by the Pope himself. Little boys again...sheesh. Anyway, they are at least listed as a conservative organization and seem to be back on their feet...as it were. BTW, not very many people received on the tongue.
Hmmm? Do you ask a child if he want to go to the doctor to get a vaccination that might save his life?
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