Another perspective on ad orientem--the priest leading
Was this aimed at me? LOL! If I understand correctly, B-XVI approved the NON-liturgical activities of the NCW. This means the folky music and such that they like is OK OUTSIDE THE MASS. This goes along with what I have been saying that there is a place for the banjo, but it is not in Mass. St Cecelia, pray for us.rcg
If you read Fr. Z's blog, it appears that their "way" of celebrating the Mass was not approved by Rome--only the extraliturgical forms.By the way, the chasuble Archbishop Sambi was wearing is just the type of modern ample plain chasuble (apparently Ignotus's preferred style) that I'm not a fan of. It is too plain and "communicates" nothing except that it is a chasuble. I much prefer to see the silk brocade semi-Gothic (slightly shorter) ones with the gold galloon tape trim and the y-orphrey with a Christian symbol where the orphrey joins together.
And they call the SSPX Schismatics.
I thought these were Anglicans.
The new pictures don't make the neo-Cats any more acceptable in my mind. Quite the opposite, they open Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II to further suspicions of their Orthodoxy. I hope that Pope Benedict at least understands that what a Cardinal may do, a Pope should not. JP sadly doesn't have that excuse, as he demonstrated way too many times in my humble opinion.
I have to second Templar's point here: If the Neo-Cats are what it means to be Catholic, I'd rather be a "schismatic" SSPX supporter. (Quotes used around schismatic because the SSPX aren't in schism.)Very bad timing for the approval of the Neocatechumenal Way as the Holy Father tries to bring into canonical regularity the SSPX...
Sometimes good men do bad things.
You may have to eat your words Templar as Cardinal Ratzinger also celebrated a Pontifical Solemn Mass in the EF as well!
I don't blame the Pope for this as the Pope does not live an "infallible" life. So, when he decides to go to Assisi to pray with the Pagans or to celebrate the very irreverent NeoCat "Mass", I just remember that many popes throughout history had mistresses and children. Infallible in faith and morals, not in actions. Oh, and I love the Holy Father and admire him as a theologian and someone much smarter than I am. I just happen to think that he is surrounded by people who "use" him for their means, which undoubtedly becomes easier as he gets older. This almost certainly happened to Bl. John Paul II.
Perhaps Card. Ratzinger offered the EF Mass in reparation for his participation in the NCW liturgy?Seriously, in the post-Vatican II disintegration that still plagues us, Pope Benedict probably sees no practical alternative to tolerating more "diversity" than he'd prefer, while keeping the Church together and trying to set it on a path toward restoration including more unity of faith and liturgy.
"I much prefer to see the silk brocade semi-Gothic (slightly shorter) ones with the gold galloon tape trim and the y-orphrey with a Christian symbol where the orphrey joins together."Actually, I recal this as the normal vestiture (at least, here in the South) before Vatican II.It was only after the Gothic style was tarnished by degeneration into ugly polyester robes that the Roman style came generally to signify the EF in so many minds. I recall that when our priest first told me that the bishop had approved our request for a regular TLM to start in a few months, he immediately said "Of course, we won't have any Roman vestments at first." I replied, "Oh yes, we will."
Father, do you contend the Holy Father's participation in a particular liturgy is necessarily a rubber stamp for that liturgy for the universal Church?
It depends on the situation or circumstances, Marc. While in Germany there was some Godawful music and almost intended as an insult to the Holy Father's taste in such, so his participation in a public Mass that included this would not be seen as an endorsement. However, Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger knew exactly what they were doing in celebrating the NeoCat Way Mass. I am sure they followed the rubrics for the Church but also allowed that which is possible and approved. I would see Pope Benedict celebrating the EF Mass as a tremendous sign of endorsement and because he hasn't yet, it gives me pause, but he has allowed its celebration I believe in all the major basilicas of Rome including St. Peters and at the Altar of the Chair behind the main papal altar, but I don't believe it has yet to be celebrated on the revered altar even though a non-pope can use it for some celebrations.
Although I likely am second to none here as a TLM enthusiast, I will be a bit surprised if and when Pope Benedict himself celebrates it publicly. Because my reading is that the goal of SP is not restoration of the EF as the normative Mass for the few, but as a model for the reform of the OF Mass for the many. And I wonder whether he might not fear that his own celebration of the EF might not be interpreted as expressing a lack of confidence that the OF actually can be rescued from its rampart abuses. (But really, who has any confidence that Vatican II's vision of a glorious flowering of the liturgy will be realized within the lifetime of anyone now alive?)
I suppose in this day of mass media (pun intended), priests should take some cues from the Pope's praxis. I also think you have addressed the issue with using that as a "guide" and that is that often those who plan the liturgy "spring" things on the Holy Father for their own purposes.Here's my thinking, though. By my count, the current Holy Father has issued 12 motu proprios, only one of which touches on the liturgy as far as I can tell. In the case of Summorum Pontificum, the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae states, "The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum constitutes an important expression of the Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff."If we agree that the actions and liturgies of the Holy Father are not part of his infallibility, whereas the Magesterium is infallible, it seems to me that his not celebrating the Tridentine Mass publicly means nothing and the statement that Summorum Pontificum is an expression of the Church's Magesterium is quite telling. Therefore, the Tridentine Mass needs no further "endorsement" from the Holy Father as he has stated its celebration in our times is part of the living Tradition of the Church.Of course, I, like you, would love love love to see the Holy Father offer a Papal Liturgy in the Traditional Form. I don't even know what that would look like. Is it just a Pontifical High Mass? Surely it is a very special event!
Marc, I have heard it speculated that Pope Benedict could not celebrate a TLM even if he wanted to simply because the Vatican currently lacks the wherewithal to conduct a Pontifical High Mass in the EF. I wish I could remember the specifics of that contention, but I can't other than there are MANY rules governing such a thing, and some of the rules could no longer be accommodated, but what rules and why I can not recall.Off to the Internet I go :)
Found it!! Many of the Papal Offices which had specific detailed parts called out for them in the rubrics of a Papal High Mass were abolished under Paul VI. In order for Pope Benedict to celebrate a TLM they would have to re-write the book to address the missing offices, or restore the offices, neither being terribly practical.
Marc, the traditional solemn Papal Mass is very much more comlex than even the traditional Pontifical Mass, which I understand the traditional rubrics do not allow the Pope to celebrate. Apparently, he can celebrate a low Papal Mass and solemn papal Mass, nothing in between. Except that as Supreme Legislator, surely he could choose of his own accord to celebrate a missa cantata or a pontifical Mass.There is serious speculation that the complexity of the Papal TLN is a real impediment to its celebration now. Wikapedia has a pretty good description:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_MassTogether with a photo that shows the opposite extreme from the photo in this post:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PapalMass1.JPG
Thank you for that, Anonymous. I was thinking the complexity might be the hindrance more than the Holy Father's not wishing to celebrate that Mass. Also, the reluctance of the Church to show the "pomp" of the "old days" to the "outside world" could also be a reason he is not celebrating that Mass. I'm analogizing here to the Holy Father's receiving, but not yet wearing, the Papal Tiara.I would note, though, that it is my understanding that the Holy Father's daily Masses are always ad orientem and always in Latin. So, he is clearly modeling that usage for the clergy and yet, lo and behold, there are no ad orientem, Latin Novus Ordo Masses anywhere near us! Imagine that!
I meant to add--as another impediment to the celebration of a full-fledged solemn Papal Mass at the present time--that many of the papal court officers specified in its ceremonial no longer exist, nor likely is anyone still alive familiar with these roles.
If the Pope has Okayed the Neo cathecuminal way, Who are you to Go against it. Are you in better position to determine what is good for the church. You did not understand your Cathecism well; you should go to the NCW for some Cathechisis!
do not judge the ways of the neocats. we respect what you do, so respect us too. people act like we're doing something terribly wrong. but we're not. we love everything about the neocatechumenal way, and we thanks God for kiko creating it. our music to me, is the most precious I have ever heard and I wouldn't trade being in a community for anything else in this world. The Way has brought so much joy to my family, and has helped me to understand things in life. I don't know how I would be right now if I wasn't in a community. so please stop judging us as only God can.
Brothers, I am a conservative catholic seminarian. But as far as I am concerned, the Neocatechumenal Way is a fruit of the Holy Spirit's work in the Church. Through the years, it has made men and women for others; people who are REAL persons and not very liturgical people. Yes, the liturgy is important, yet it is not the end goal of all. You see, when you become very attached to the liturgy per se, you become less attached to the meaning of the liturgy. The manner in which the "way" celebrates the Eucharist is a manifestation of conviviality in the Risen Christ, brotherhood in genuine charity and fraternity in diversity.As good Catholics, we are not to be judgmental. Yes, the liturgy is important. But being Catholic and Christian is far more than just being liturgical. I see no abuse in the liturgy by the NeoCats.Being overly liturgical can make you more of a snobbish, irrational, and at times inhuman person. Far more than the external practices are the exercises of the soul.The Vatican, the Magisterium and the People of God are working together to bring us more closely to God and not to mere golden statues and sophisticated cathedrals. Externalities should lead you to God.I leave you with the thoughts of S. Ignatius of Loyola, "Learn to presuppose."
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