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Sunday, December 7, 2025

VATICAN II AT 60 YEARS OLD—A TIME FOR A CRITIQUE OF THE GOOD, BAD AND UGLEY IN THE LAST 60 YEARS?


Recently, Cardinal Fernandez, with Pope Leo’s imprimatur, critiqued two Marian titles used for centuries by popes, bishops, priests and laity in popular piety. These are “Mary, as Co-Remptrix” and “Mary, as Co-Mediatrix.” In both cases, for various reasons, primarily that neither title has a defined doctrinal or dogmatic formulation or decree, that these two titles, used for centuries, by popes, St. John Paul II, the latest, cannot be used in any formal teachings of the Church. However, if someone, like a pope, understands these formulations in a proper way, they can continue to use these in private piety and beliefs. 

Yet, yet, yet, so many in the Church to include popes, bishops and priests, proclaim certain aspects of Vatican II, contained in its documents, as doctrine and dogma, when in fact these are only statements of a “pastoral” nature, or theological configurations not defined as doctrines or dogmas. 

To be sure, the documents of Vatican II reiterate pre-Vatican II defined doctrines and dogmas. In this critique, I am not writing about these immutable truths.

But when it comes to the Liturgy and its reforms—these are discipline-oriented recommendations and there is nothing to say that what is recommended are doctrines, dogmas or set in concrete. There is nothing preventing arguments of a theological and doctrinal or even disciplinary nature, to say that the Fathers of Vatican II got this, that and the other wrong. The Second Vatican Council is not a dogmatic Council, but rather pastoral. And pastoral initiatives, no matter how wise or stupid, are not doctrines or dogmas. Yet so many state that everything about Vatican II must be obeyed and believed on the same level as though doctrines and dogmas. That is a false narrative in my most humble opinion.

I won’t go any further in my critique, except to say that all the documents concerning ecumenism, inter-faith relationships and relationships with the world in general, are pastoral initiatives that can and must be critiqued in terms of results in the last 60 years. Nothing in this vain is doctrine or dogmas. One can raise questions and no one should say that a Catholic is being disobedient toward Vatican II or its authority in raising questions!

The same is true of Religious Freedom.

The same is true of the reforms of religious life and the priesthood.

With that said, though, the hierarchical nature of the Church, which is dogma, must be respected for the sake of sacred order in the Church. Canon laws that are for order, not necessarily divine or unchangable, must be respected. But with these, dispensations from canon law are always possible.

So, my recommendation on the 60th anniversary of Vatican II is to go back to Pope Benedict XVI’s elocution to the Cardinals of the Curia at their Christmas gathering where His Holiness called for the proper interpretation of Vatican II in continuity with all that preceded the Council, especially Trent which was a dogmatic Council and anathematized so many heresies of the Protestant Reformation. 

And certainly Summorum Pontificum should be reinstated as an authoritative product of Pope Benedict’s Magisterium in His Holiness’ efforts to interpret Vatican II properly, that is in continuity with all that preceded it, all the Councils of the Church to include the Council of Trent, which was a dogmatic Council!

Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix have a longer history in the Church than most of the pastoral solutions proposed by the Second Vatican Council—points of discipline and attitudes, not doctrines and dogmas!

Judge the pastoral initiatives by the fruits, good, bad or rotten, that has occurred, especially as the “new springtime for the Church” never happened, although much touted as a future result of Vatican II! Judge the fruits and their quality compared to the results of the Council of Trent! 

10 comments:

TJM said...

Vatican II = Colossal Failure

TJM said...

Another “fruit” of Vatican II:

https://nypost.com/2025/12/06/us-news/boston-archdiocese-calls-for-removal-of-ice-was-here-sign-from-nativity-scene/

TJM said...

Another "fruit" of Vatican II. Jesuit College now calls English literature built on "White Supremacy." That school should be torn down and the earth salted.

https://www.thecollegefix.com/loyola-maryland-english-dept-says-literature-built-on-white-supremacy-may-rename-program/

Nick said...

In point of fact, there is a society of apostolic life of pontifical right that does exactly this: the Institute of the Good Shepherd. From their website:

"It is undeniable that Vatican II posed to the Church the essential questions of modernity: conscience, religious freedom, truth, reason and faith, the natural or supernatural unity of mankind, violence and dialogue with cultures, grace and expectations of humanity, etc. Today, we cannot be satisfied with yesterday's responses which must take into account the new issues. But the Council dates from 1965 and today it is no longer a closed discourse on itself. We recognize it for what it is: an ecumenical council falling under the authentic magisterium, but not infallible in every respect and that, because of its novelties, faces certain difficulties in its continuity with the Gospel and Tradition.

We therefore want to participate constructively in a critique on certain themes developed during and after the Second Vatican Council. This debate, opened within the Church by Pope Benedict XVI, concerns points of doctrinal discontinuity posed by the Council. This is the meaning of the commitment formula signed by the founders of the IBP: we commit ourselves to have a positive attitude of study and communication with the Apostolic See, avoiding any controversy."

Nick

Mark Thomas said...

Father McDonald said..."So, my recommendation on the 60th anniversary of Vatican II is to go back to Pope Benedict XVI’s elocution to the Cardinals of the Curia at their Christmas gathering where His Holiness called for the proper interpretation of Vatican II..."

When has Holy Mother Church not provided us with the proper interpretation of Vatican II?

=======

In regard to the proper interpretation of Vatican II:

Should we assign that task to one Pope, then we would turn to Pope Francis (requiescat in pace).

Pope Leo XIV, May 10, 2025 A.D:

"In this regard, I would like us to renew together today our complete commitment to the path that the universal Church has now followed for decades in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.

"Pope Francis masterfully and concretely set it forth in the Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium, from which I would like to highlight several fundamental points..."

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

December 7th is also the anniversary of Pearl Harbor! A coincidence? I think not!

ByzRus said...

VII = Colossal Failure for the RC.

VII saved the Byzantine Churches allowing them to rediscover their liturgy and traditions.

ByzRus said...

I feel like I've watched my lifetime go by with suggesting/hints of "proper interpretation" only to be ignored while many have to be sore from years/decades of nose thumbing. At what point do you just agree it cannot be fixed absent legislation, or otherwise. NO ONE would run a for profit business like this and either stay in business or get away with this state of affairs for this long.

Nick said...

Just as some say everything in the Church must be read through the lens of Vatican II and the glorious 1960s, there are some who astonishingly think everything must be assessed or re-assessed in light of 2013 to 2025. Who needs the new Pentecost of Vatican II when we have an even newer Pentecost? After all, the pope (or at least one particular pope) is apparently God’s oracle!

Nick

Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said...

Quite Possibly. After Pearl Harbor everything changed for the better. (Quite an insightful observation there, TeeJayEmm.)