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Thursday, October 30, 2025

WHERE-IN I DISAGREE AND AGREE WITH FATHER Z

The top photo a TLM Requiem and the bottom photo a Pope Paul VI Daily Mass


Speaking about the Chattanooga Basilica and eliminating the TLM in favor of a traditionally celebrated Pope Paul VI Mass, this is what Fr. Z opines:  

 Fr. Carter strives to sound pastoral and sincere, to acknowledge the inflicted pain over the transition from the Traditional Latin Mass to the Novus Ordo. Yet his core argument, that continuity is preserved if the reformed liturgy is “done well”, rests on assertion rather than proof. By blaming rupture on poor implementation, he overlooks structural discontinuities within the reform itself.

 His proposed “hermeneutic of continuity” Mass, a personalized blend of old and new elements, ironically imposes subjectivism, making worship depend on the celebrant’s discretion rather than liturgical law. 

Absurd claims, such as that the 1962 Missale leaves “no place” for the faithful, misrepresent the nature of participation and the priest’s mediating role. Though he tried to sound compassionate, his tone condescending, reducing attachment to the TLM to emotion rather than conviction. Ultimately, the homily seems to offer sympathy but not resolution. It promises harmony where unresolved theological and ritual fractures remain.

Wherein I agree about subjectivism being imposed on the Pope Paul VI Mass:

Everything about the Pope Paul VI Mass depends on how the priest wants to celebrate it. This is built into the choices and rubrics of the Mass, i.e. "In these or similar words"; a variety of Penitential Act choices or eliminate it in favor of the Rite of Blessing Holy Water and Sprinkling; which Eucharistic Prayer; a final solemn blessing or not. And when it comes to hymns chosen for the Mass, it's the wild west. And even though the Council called for a more lavish selection of Scriptures, the Pope Paul VI Missal allows for Scriptures to be eliminated at the Introit, Offertory and Communion in favor of a choir director's or the priest's personal hymn choices, good or bad, scriptural or not. 

And certainly the priest facing the congregation throughout the Mass enables him to take on the role of an MC or entertainer, his personality or lack there-of becomes front and center.

And within this context, yes, ad orientem and Kneeling for Holy Communion and making choices from the Modern Missal to make the Modern Mass more traditional, is subjectivism of the pastor or the priest doing it.

Wherein I want to challenge Fr. Z, who I believe has never been a pastor of a parish church, to sympathize with the pastor in Chattanooga rather than criticize him.    

The pastor, Fr. Carter made a promise to his bishop and his successors of obedience. That's up there with the promise of celibacy, btw!  He has to eliminate the TLM in his parish by the bishop's decree based upon what the bishop wants or does not want to do in terms of seeking an extension of the TLM in his diocese with the Vatican's Dycastery of Divine worship. That's the bishop's prerogative, fair or not. 

While it is indeed subjective, what Fr. Carter proposes for a more traditional celebration of the post-Vatican II Mass is a compromise. But, the next pastor may have other ideas--so the congregation is still a victim of clericalism when it comes to the liturgy, on steroids with the Modern Mass, not the TLM! 

I applaud Fr. Carter's pastoral approach to this debacle and I suspect he is working in union with his bishop to make a more traditional model of the Paul VI Mass available to those who love the TLM.

My conclusions:

1. We worship God, not the form of the Mass. Don't turn the form of the Mass, TLM or Modern into a false god!!!

2. Pope Leo needs to deal with all the problems of the Modern Mass with all its subjectivity of style of celebration which is clericalism on steroids. 

3. Pope Leo needs to return to the Summorum Pontificum days and Ecclesia Dei!

4. Pope Leo needs to concretize the traditional celebration of the Modern Mass by allowing all TLM Order of the Modern Mass along with all the traditional elements allowed in the Ordinariate's Missal, Divine Worship--that would take some of the subjectivity out of this option, but not all! 

By the way, this is a post I wrote on December 2, 2020, before Traditionis Custodis which has application to what is happening today. Press the title for that most humble but excellent post:

RIGIDITY OF THE EXTRAORDINARY FORM AND THE FLEXIBILITY OF THE ORDINARY FORM MASSES

 

 

 

 

9 comments:

big benny said...

So basically…. remove any options allowed within the Paul vi missal but permit adaptations within the ordinariate missal ?

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

I would think if you want a Pope Paul VI Mass that has the reverence and ethos of the TLM along with its order, that if you pick the TLM order, but using the Modern Missal for everything else, as well as it calendar and lectionary, that that option excluded other options. But it is still just one option out of a host of options that from the Modern Missal.

Nick said...

Speaking of the rigidity of those demanding an end of the Modern Mass and the TLM, "from the beginning [the mid-1960s] it was not so." See this extensively-researched new piece from the Hand Missal History Project: https://handmissalhistory.com/newmass1964part3/

Nick

TJM said...

Here is just another reason to suppress the Novus Ordo but don’t be drinking your coffee when opening this:

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2025/10/novus-ordo-only-form-of-roman-rite-now.html?m=1

Nick said...

D'oh! Read this to say "demanding the Modern Mass be done in a certain way and an end of the TLM"

That's what I get for commenting before finishing my coffee.

Nick

TJM said...

What is truly evil about this situation is that the Church bends over backwards in its tolerance of perverts and the heterodox, including tolerating invalid or illicit Masses of the Novus Ordo, but shows zero tolerance or charity towards faithful Catholics who desire the TLM. God will not be mocked and these bishops and priests pursuing the suppression of the TLM may end up in Hell unless they repent.

C.W. said...

The lady sure doth protest an awful lot.

William said...

The Bugnini Mass wrapped up in pretty paper and tied with a lace ribbon is still a Bugnini Mass.

Fr. Allan J. McDonald said...

And the One Sacrifice of our Lord is made truly present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Are you suggesting that the Sacrifice and Real Presence of our Lord differs in different celebrations of the Mass in the East and West????