Yet, the insanity in Rome’s Vatican says that the TLM is the dangerous liturgy!
Please look at the spectators looking at this spectacle very recently in Italy. Look at their faces Look at the close-up photographer. Do you think any of these people have any sense of Eucharistic Coherence or love and piety for the Real Presence of Christ in the Mass? Does this inspire reverence or simply shows an eccentric priest who wants to be the center of attention with his clown Mass?
Yes, the TLM is the problem! It is sickening to see what is allowed and what is suppressed.
31 comments:
The Roman Church is, in part, a laughingstock.
Behold Abp Paglia: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theamericanconservative.com%2Fcatholic-archbishop-paglia-homoerotic-fresco%2F&psig=AOvVaw0kYTTqYBQJHSV_YGE-T8gs&ust=1682441905056000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCJiF3tT-wv4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI
Behold the photo you presented. Childish nonsense clearly not being taken seriously by those participating.
Behold supremely ugly churches, some provided here, warehousing supremely ugly worship.
Behold Fr. too cool for school whizzing around in church on a segue.
Behold the scandals, monetary, sexual and other.
Behold the venom that pours forth from the current occupant of the throne.
Behold. Behold. Behold. The good is overshadowed by "behold".
Every. Damn. Day. it would seem.
Father McDonald, a blogger could spend day after day documenting nonsense that exists within, if you will, "Novus Ordo-ism."
A blogger could spend day after day documenting nonsense that exists, if you will, within TLM-ism.
Each Pope, from Saint John XXIII to Francis, was/is a Vatican II modernist. Do not attend the Jewish/Protestant/Masonic Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI. Any priest who offers the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI — even if he offers the TLM — is a traitor to the Faith.
Vatican II/the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI must be destroyed. The TLM must, and will, return as the Western Church's primary Mass.
Such, as well as additional nonsense, is the insanity that one could document daily with TLM-ism.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
The good news is these leftwing tyrants’ time on this earth is almost over. These are the angry last gasps of losers who know they have lost!
Mark Thomas,
Your persistent prevarications, lack of substance, and cut and paste bilge, is an insult to Father McDonald and anyone with an intellect. Please peddle your wares elsewhere.
Mark Thomas said:
"Such, as well as additional nonsense, is the insanity that one could document daily with TLM-ism."
Mostly, no. Disagree. Show facts. Faulty statement and logic. I'm not even a TLM'er and I can blow a hole right through this. One cannot hold a candle to the other.
ByzRus,
These are the last gasps of bitter clingers (hey, I kind of like this phrase in this context). They have a substandard product, have destroyed the Faith of millions, and yet persist in pursuing a failed strategy. The good news is that every priest I know in his early 30s can celebrate the TLM and are just biding their time until these doubleknit dinosaurs depart this earth for their "reward." My only fear in in their last gasps they will ordain women.
mark, do you have photo evidence of the TLM celebrated in a similarly sacrilegious way since 2007 when Pope Benedict graciously allowed its liberal celebration. I would like to see the evidence and how its celebration has corrupted the liturgical piety and reverence of priests and laity.
Mark Thomas:
"Such, as well as additional nonsense, is the insanity that one could document daily with TLM-ism."
This is an offensive, unfounded claim.
How possibly, can such a small, yet devoted portion of the overall Church be creating such "insanity"? Their priests as well.
You mistakenly equate opinions of bloggers with actions that are recordable and tangibles be it structures etc.
Often, TLM parishes are financially sound. Additionally, they adhere to the precepts of the Church - is that evidenced elsewhere given the mass antics and questionable mural "art" that we've seen in the last day here on this blog?
Father McDonald said..."mark, do you have photo evidence of the TLM celebrated in a similarly sacrilegious way since 2007 when Pope Benedict graciously allowed its liberal celebration. I would like to see the evidence and how its celebration has corrupted the liturgical piety and reverence of priests and laity."
Father McDonald, I did not say anything about the manner in which the TLM is offered by today's priests. As far as I know, today's priests offer the TLM in reverent fashion.
The only possible exception is that one may encounter a Low Mass offered in dreadful, 20-minute, mumbled, pre-Vatican II style. Other than that possibility, priests who offer the TLM, from you, to the SSPX, to sedevacantists, do so in reverent fashion.
Liturgical reverence is a given within TLM communities.
The problem(s) within TLM-ism concerns attacks against Papal authority...attacks against Vatican II, the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, attacks against Vatican II Era Popes...
More than a few trads draw inspiration from Archbishop Lefebvre's mutiny/vile attacks against the Church.
Fortunately, liturgical irreverence is not a problem within the TLM Movement.
Unfortunately, many horrific problems exist within the TLM Movement.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ByzRus,
Captain Sanctimonious/Delusional ignores survey after survey which substantiate that TLM Catholics actually believe what the Church teaches in stark contrast to the majority of Novus Ordo attendees who have not a clue what the Church teaches particularly the Church’s teaching on the Real Presence.
"The only possible exception is that one may encounter a Low Mass offered in dreadful, 20-minute, mumbled, pre-Vatican II style"
May, or have? That sounds like a criticism of 1950s masses that you've heard Fr. AJM mention numerous times. Do you have practical experience with this, or are you simply repeating what's been posted. I've attended numerous low masses and none were "mumbled" in 20 minutes. Low voice, certainly, but hurried mumbling no. Come to think of it, I did attend a more brief low mass once, but the priest apologized stating he was severely pressed for time and wanted to make sure we were served. I cannot fault a stretched-thin priest for that!
"More than a few trads draw inspiration from Archbishop Lefebvre's mutiny/vile attacks against the Church."
Yet again, Mark Thomas, conjecture not based upon fact.
Let us allow Abp speak for himself - he does not need me to do it for him:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/516416.Marcel_Lefebvre
+50 years on, was he entirely incorrect? His words are those of a son in pain, one who felt abandoned and was simply standing up for what he felt was right. Should disobedience be celebrated? No, except to the extent that what was and remains good and right was unfairly being maligned and dismantled.
Are those who turn in pedophiles disobedient and vile? Perhaps in the eyes of some for not towing an institutions line. To others, and from the perspective of current thinking vis-a-vis mandated reporters, certainly not. Had Abp. Lefebvre been passionately standing up for sacriledge and lasciviousness, that would truly have been disobedient and vile (hmmmmm......reminds me of mural "art" I've seen in an ecclesiastical setting within the last day). On the contrary, he was standing up for what he felt passionately was right evidently driven by his strong formation. I'll respect him for doing this.
TJM,
I try to be charitable. I often fail.
The words of a certain individual test me they are so sensationalized in most respects. In any other setting, the unfounded statements (sometimes wildly so) would result in sanctions.
I try to remain civil. I hope not to fail.
The following from then-Cardinal Ratzinger has served to note the horrific side of the TLM Movement:
That is, the horrific manner in which Archbishop Lefebvre's mutiny, as well as Satanic statements, against Rome/the supposed "Novus Ordo Church" have long found favor among so-called "traditional" Catholics.
Then-Cardinal Ratzinger's assessment of Archbishop Lefebvre's influence:
"We must reflect on this fact: that a large number of Catholics, far beyond the narrow circle of the Fraternity of Lefebvre, see this man as a guide, in some sense, or at least as a useful ally."
More than a few trads view Archbishop Lefebvre, who denounced Popes Saints Paul VI, and John Paul II, as well as then-Cardinal Ratzinger, as "apostates."
Archbishop Lefebvre said of the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as Holy Mother Church's Sacraments:
"...the rite of the Mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments."
Many commenters to this blog have praised Archbishop Lefebvre to the hilt.
New Catholic (Rorate Caeli), Peter Kwasniewski, Michael Matt (The Remnant) are influential players within the Traditional Catholic Movement.
Incredibly, Peter Kwasniewski has been invited to FSSP parishes where he has promoted his mutiny against God/Holy Mother Church.
More than a few "traditionalists" hold Archbishop Lefebvre, New Catholic (Rorate Caeli), Peter Kwasniewski, Michael Matt (The Remnant) in high regard.
In addition, "traditional" Catholicism is plagued by crackpot conspiracy theories...anti-semitism, nonsense about Fatima (I treasure Fatima...but not the related trad nonsense).
Peter Kwasniewski: "While I am an adamant opponent of feminism, I am no less staunch an opponent of chauvinism wherever I see it — and I do see it reappearing in the traditional movement, along with other -isms (e.g., antisemitism, libertarianism, sedevacantism) that are incompatible with Catholic tradition. The revival of traditional liturgical practice has permitted the reappearance of some extreme points of view that deserve refutation."
It is preposterous to pretend that serious issues have not long-plagued "traditional" Catholicism.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
I said..."More than a few trads draw inspiration from Archbishop Lefebvre's mutiny/vile attacks against the Church."
ByzRus said..."Yet again, Mark Thomas, conjecture not based upon fact."
Are you serious about that? Your statement is beyond comprehension.
Are you unaware as to the tremendous influence that Archbishop Lefebvre, even in death, has long-wielded upon "traditional" Catholics?
Are you unaware that within "traditional" Catholic circles, his mutinies against Vatican II, the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as holy Popes...against "Modernist Rome/New Church"...have resulted in his having been regarded as a "Saint" and "hero?"
Your comment in question is unbelievable...incredible. Again, beyond comprehension.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
You are a bootlicker - you would have fit perfectly in the Third Reich. You have never apologized to Father McDonald for lying about his statements so your credibility is nil. Dr Kwasniewski’s toe has more intelligence than your whole body
Mark,
I promise what I write here has ZERO irony or sarcasm.
I could not disagree more profoundly with a lot of what you write; especially on the enormous merits of Pope Francis, and even more especially what you write on the “serious issues” you believe “plague” traditional Catholicism.
But I do respect you.
Why? For almost 10 years you have defended and praised Pope Francis on this blog (and I assume other blogs, too) and as regards many others here - not so much lately, but more in the past, you have been personally insulted in the worst and strongest terms….
Yet, not ONCE can I recall you ever responding with any personal insult at all against anyone.
You clearly love God and His Church; and as a result of that great love for God and His Church you clearly think it necessary to praise Francis when ever possible, and defend him at any opportunity.
I could be wrong here, but I doubt it….I really believe myself and anyone like me, if lucky, could be stuck in Purgatory with something like 100,000 to 200,000 years to wait before entering heaven….where someone like yourself is the sort of soul who will likely bypass Purgatory all together.
Mark Thomas,
I'm well aware of the views of many regarding Abp. LeFebvre. I don't exist under a rock. Neither he nor they generally do anything that a reasonable person would normally consider to be "vile".
Paul,
Why encourage Mark Thomas to continue with his cut and paste ranks which are full of hate and falsehoods? His statements on Dr. Kwasniewski, who he is not fit to tie his shoes, are beyond the pale. He has aso lied about Father McDonald's statements and has never apologized. He comes off as unhinged from reality as most on the left are today.
One of our finest commentators, John Nolan, used to take him to task, to no avail. Sorry, you are making a mistake.
TJM,
In part I agree wholeheartedly BUT what amazes me, and causes me to have respect for Mark, is both his great (YEARS long) persistence here and elsewhere and how he himself never responds with personal insults after he himself has often been insulted in the strongest terms…
I’d say on the most important political, cultural and religious issues we, you and I, are probably close to 99% in agreement…
However, TJM, think about it. OK ?
This blog just wouldn’t be the same without honest, faithful, persistent Mark and his love of Francis; and, also, wouldn’t be the same without the most learned Reverend Michael K - with his likewise endless persistent goal to enlighten us plebs with details of the sacred Mickavisterium….
And as the other Mark said (I think) at least sometimes the truth (say with Francis) probably lies somewhere between Mark’s opinions on His Holiness and your and my view of Francis (believe me I basically agree with your assessment of Francis but the old school Catholic in me will always find it near impossible to write or say publicly what I think of the present pope)…
To finish, why don’t we both say an extra Hail Mary for Fr Allen? Fr Allen has been wise and generous enough to allow an amazing range of voices to be heard on his blog for years…..a rare and fine achievement!
Fr Allen has proved true what I think the greatest novelist of the 20th century, James Joyce, said about us ……
“ With Catholics, it’s a case of here comes everyone!”
ByzRus, please correct me if I have mischaracterized the following:
The following declarations of Archbishop are not "vile." Is that correct?
Dictionary: "Vile"...unpleasant, horrible.
Archbishop Lefebvre, in regard to the Holy Mass of Pope Saint Paul VI, as well as Holy Mother Church's Sacraments:
"...the rite of the Mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments."
Archbishop Lefebvre: "The present acts of John Paul II and the national episcopates illustrates, year by year, this radical change in the conception of the Faith, the Church, the priesthood, the world, and salvation by grace.
"John Paul II encourages the false religions to pray to their false gods — an immeasurable, unprecedented scandal."
"The rupture does not come from us, but from Paul VI and John Paul II who break with their predecessors."
"This denial of the whole past of the Church by these two popes and the bishops who imitate them is an inconceivable impiety for those who remain Catholic in fidelity to twenty centuries of the same Faith.
"Thus we consider as null everything inspired by this spirit of denial of the past: all the post-conciliar reforms, and all the acts of Rome accomplished in this impiety."
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The above declarations from Archbishop Lefebvre are not vile...horrible...unpleasant. Correct?
ByzRus, you agree with the declarations in question?
That is just the beginning of Archbishop Lefebvre's vile mutinous declarations...his heart and mind had sided with Satan.
Archbishop Lefebvre had opted for excommunication, rather than holy, docile obedience to the Vicar of Christ, Pope Saint John Paul II.
Nevertheless, Archbishop Lefebvre, far and wide among "traditional" Catholics, has long been proclaimed a "Saint" and "hero."
Pax.
Mark Thomas
ByzRus, the main thing I find myself doing these days is praying for Rome to come to their senses
If AI , that is artificial intelligence, could create a cyberspace being with the words, sentences and paragraphs put together to be most flattering of Pope Francis and the most insulting to those who have ever criticised a modern pope …. - what words/assertions would such an AI cyberspace being come out with ?
Mark, your mental and emotional stamina astounds me….
I hope you are not an AI created or constructed prototype cyberspace being - a pope Francis devotee AI Mark 1 ? That your creators are going to improve on with an AI Mark 2 pope Francis devotee?
Mark,
I don't view as declarations, they are simply statements/opinions where context is insufficient to definitively determine the extent to which they are vile.
LeFevbre was entitled to his opinion the same as the rest of us. His word choices relative to his characterizations might be off-putting to offensive to you, among others, not as much.
I don't personally believe any/all pertaining to him rises to the level of 'siding with Satan".
Old Believers in the Russian Church were persecuted, some mercilessly, in the years following the Nikonian reforms. Now, 500 years later, they are integrated back into the Russian Church effectively having their own apostolate. We're they wrong for standing up for themselves? Did they side with Satan? Is history repeating itself again? I suppose that's up to the individual to determine. I continue to maintain that those devoted to the TLM have a point, they aren't wrong with some of their assertions and they are certainly not anathema as they are unfairly judged and labeled by the Roman Pontiff, among others. There simply isn't sufficient evidence that what happened there is right. Benedict made this clear only to be rebuked by his successor.
It could be argued Paul VI by destroying the Roman Mass and driving millions away from the Church was siding with Satan or at least advancing Satan’s goals. Francis is running a close second
Paul said..."To finish, why don’t we both say an extra Hail Mary for Fr Allen? Fr Allen has been wise and generous enough to allow an amazing range of voices to be heard on his blog for years…..a rare and fine achievement!"
I respect Father McDonald. I respect the manner in which Father McDonald has conducted his great, and important, blog.
He allows each person to comment as he, or she, will. Father McDonald does not require anybody to march in lockstep with his opinions.
This is by far my favorite blog.
Peace and good health to Father McDonald...and to each person who participates here.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas,
If you "respect" Father McDonald, why have you still not apologized to Father McDonald for lying about his statement? I have called you out on this at least a dozen times. Only a Girlieman doesn't apologize when they are wrong.
ByzRus said..."Mark, I don't view as declarations, they are simply statements/opinions where context is insufficient to definitively determine the extent to which they are vile. LeFevbre was entitled to his opinion the same as the rest of us. His word choices relative to his characterizations might be off-putting to offensive to you, among others, not as much. I don't personally believe any/all pertaining to him rises to the level of 'siding with Satan"."
Okay. That is your opinion. Thank you for your response. Have a blessed day.
=====================================================================================
The shame in regard to Archbishop Lefebvre exists on many levels.
He signed the Protocol with Rome. The following day, he rescinded his word that he had pledged to Rome. If anything, his disgraceful action in question had set back the TLM Movement for decades.
Had he followed through on his word, and remained obedient to Pope John Paul II, then the SSPX would have been purged of its errors. Pope Saint John Paul II would have guided the SSPX to the fullness of truth.
In turn, the SSPX would have served as a healthy, rational outlet to which the TLM Faithful could have turned.
An additional shame is that Archbishop Lefebvre had favored Satan over obedience to Pope Saint John Paul II. Archbishop Lefebvre favored the grave sin of schism over communion with Pope Saint John Paul II.
That was the work of Satan.
In addition, Archbishop Lefebvre had heaped additional shame upon himself as he had waved off his excommunication. Pope Saint John Paul II had declared that Archbishop Lefebvre had "incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law."
Archbishop Lefebvre had rejected Pope Saint John Paul II's/"Modernist" Rome's holy effort to have kept the Archbishop from having given into Satan.
What a shame.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Mark Thomas continues to dodge reality. Here is actually a great summary of this disatrous pontificate which Mark Thomas, as chief bootlicker, will not read, nor understand:
"The pontificate of Pope Francis has just passed the ten-year mark, which is already an honorable length of time. It is therefore possible to take a first look back, as we did last time on the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. To begin with, to clarify our position, we have no personal animosity towards Pope Francis. On the contrary, he has made several significant gestures toward the Society of St. Pius X, which are important to us.
Everyone recognizes that Pope Francis has a very personal, somewhat authoritarian mode of government, that he acts at will and often unpredictably. The number of Motu Proprios he has already promulgated is an unmistakable sign of this. In absolute terms, of course, one could argue about this way of doing things, but he is certainly not the first Pope to act in this way. In any case, it is not his method of leadership that we will discuss today.
What really seems important to us is not how Pope Francis acts, but what he does, the very content of his action. And here, it must be said clearly, the results of the pontificate seem to us rather catastrophic. Pope Francis is constantly undermining the structural elements of the Church, the pillars of Christian life, and he is thus shaking them to the core, leaving us to fear or foresee their total ruin.
It is not precisely in the speculative, dogmatic order that he attacks. It is not, it seems, a domain that attracts him and fascinates him. He concentrates rather on the practical domain, that of action, and there he makes great strides, unfortunately in the wrong direction.
He first attacked morality, a field that had been, somehow and only partially, preserved from a systematic questioning. Through various documents and initiatives, he has paved the way for the satisfaction of "societal" demands, such as access to the sacraments for remarried divorcees and homosexual 'couples', recognition of trans-identity, access of women to ordained ministries, etc., as the German Synod has well understood.
The second stage of the barrage is the massive and coordinated assault on the traditional liturgy, which is so modestly and marginally celebrated. It is a matter of eradicating everything that would recall not only the Church before Vatican II, but even simply the Church before Francis, since, after all, the official return of this ancient liturgy dates only from his predecessor.
Pope Francis, by his actions in these and parallel areas, will undoubtedly leave behind a deeply shaken Church."
The sentient amongst us, will understand and agree.
If this is a "Blessing of the Bikes" Mass, it is likely that many of the attendees are non-Catholics or fallen-away Catholics. Reverence among such people would necessarily be spotty.
It is unfortunate that the priest did such a gimmicky thing as wearing a helmet.
Usually the idea is to have a very solemn Mass (along with good vestments), which takes seriously both the motorcyclists and their potential peril while riding. One of our deceased priests who was usually informal did this, as did one of his motorcyclist successors who was usually formal.
TJM
Though no one is perfect, particularly a man elected by men, this pontificate will not likely be cataloged as a golden era of growth.
To note, and based upon circumstance, legal and programming come readily to mind, declarations and statements are not interchangeable terms.
I didn't respond to the above given the apparent dismissal that I received, the other taking his marbles and going home.
The accusations of satanic behavior relative to the ideology that's evidently been embraced in its entirely are off putting. Disobedience, perhaps. Demonic behavior. Doubtful.
I think it was commentor Paul who noted that individual's propensity to lob insults in the most polite way possible. Sums things up perfectly. I've long not bought into the pius angelicus facade and potentially insincere wishes for pax. Though laudable to love, pray for and pledge fidelity to the occupant of the throne, I find it difficult to simply and blindly fall into line given the overt hostility that emanates from that throne towards a percentage of his flock. Despots engender loyalty by fear. Benevolent leaders engender loyalty through mercy and love.
So there we have it. The commentor you referenced will continue with Mayberry-style pseudo pax and blind adherence. You, I and others will just be silent lovers of this institution waiting for the Holy Spirit to determine when this particular moment in that institution's history has run its course.
ByzRus,
Very well said. I suspect, like some of Hitler’s fanatic followers, he will commit suicide when the Golden Calf dies!
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